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Post by mackenzie45220 on Oct 4, 2015 12:13:20 GMT -5
As for the Hamilton conversation, I don't see what the debate is. He's good defensively and horrible offensively. As long as there is no better candidate, he's the CF. What he isn't though is a leadoff hitter. Someone with an OBP of under .280 that doesn't also possess power is nothing more than a #8(or maybe more appropriately #9) hitter in a MLB lineup.As for the actual subject of this thread, I didn't see the game last night but from the boxscore that appears to be a nice outing for Finnegan. One that gives some hope for his future as a starter. Not just that he got in 6 full innings, or that he reached the upper 80's in pitch count, but he limited a good team that still has something to play for to a single run and four hits. I'd see next season's starting five shaping up to be five of these seven names: Iglesias, Lorenzen, Finnegan, DeSclafani, Lamb, Bailey(at some point) and Stephenson. Gives the Reds a couple of guys to consider for bullpen roles in Sampson and Moscot as well as any of the other names that aren't in the rotation. The only one I never want to see in a Reds uniform again is Josh Smith. He's god awful. Agreed. The others were saying that he doesn't deserve more than the league minimum salary, basically insisting that he is a replacement player, providing 0 WAR. I also agree that he should be a number 8 hitter, all of the time. He's obviously bad with the bat, and should use the bat as little as possible. Sampson strikes out just enough people that I could picture him being a decent reliever. The one thing that worries me is that you mentioned 5 of 7 names as potential guys in the rotation; what do we do with the other 2? Put them in the bullpen, or AAA? Neither option looks great. I think Iglesias, DeSclafani, and Bailey are locks for the rotation next year. Maybe even add Lamb to that list; a guy whose best pitch is a curveball shouldn't be pitching in the bullpen, plus his strikeout numbers are really good and suggest his poor ERA is mostly just a fluke. So where does that leave Finnegan, Lorenzen, and Stephenson? Lorenzen was truly bad this year, but he only had about 160 minor league innings before being called up, and he only had 42 college innings when he was drafted because he was a center fielder who dabbled as a closer in college. Put it this way; Sal Romano is 21, Michael Lorenzen is 23, and Romano has pitched about 125 more post high school innings than Lorenzen. Lorenzen is less experienced than his age suggests, too early to rule him out as a starter. Finnegan is 22, Stephenson is 22, both could be starters. It's really a crunch, then you've got Reed and Amir Garrett coming along well.
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Post by walstib on Oct 4, 2015 15:12:50 GMT -5
Finnegan was not a Red when this thread was initiated. He has the talent for the rotation.
As for the 4 pitchers in the title of this thread, I still see them has ultimately pitching from the bullpen.
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Post by mackenzie45220 on Oct 4, 2015 15:55:00 GMT -5
Finnegan was not a Red when this thread was initiated. He has the talent for the rotation. As for the 4 pitchers in the title of this thread, I still see them has ultimately pitching from the bullpen. I really can't believe you'd say that about Iglesias. He strikes out so many people. He was great this season, all DIPS indicate he was one of baseball's most unlucky pitchers.
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Post by vtreds22 on Oct 4, 2015 16:04:31 GMT -5
Finnegan was not a Red when this thread was initiated. He has the talent for the rotation. As for the 4 pitchers in the title of this thread, I still see them has ultimately pitching from the bullpen. DeSclafani just gave the Reds 185 innings of 4.05 ERA ball. That's the definition of a 4th/5th starter. He just proved he's a starter, FFS. Iglesias hsa clearly shown that he has the stuff to pitch in a big league rotation, as his 104 K's in 95 innings and 1.14 WHIP shows. If you don't think he has the talent to pitch in a big league rotation, then I'd suggest getting your eyes checked. Stephenson is one of the best pitching prospects in the minors who needs more seasoning. Given how the team is going to suck next year, there's no need to rush him. The only guy you listed in this thread who doesn't look like a good bet to stick in a big league rotation is Lorenzen.
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Post by tiberius3108 on Oct 5, 2015 0:05:01 GMT -5
Hamilton sucks. He is a late inning defensive replacement or pinch runner. He should not be the starting CF until he proves he can get on base at better than a .268 clip. Not true. First off, when you say .268, you better mean OBP, because at .268 batting average is what Hamilton needs to be all star caliber, not starting caliber. Yes, he's bad with the bat, but going back to 2014, Fangraphs says he's been the second best defensive player in baseball, behind only Andrelton Simmons. He's probably actually the third best defender in all of baseball, because Kevin Kiermaier has been a god this year and would have probably accumulated more defensive value than Hamilton had he played last year, but Hamilton is absolutely worth starting given how much ground he covers in the outfield. Even with as bad as he has been with the bat this year, he's still a slightly above average MLB starting center fielder. I did say On Base, and no, I dont care what your "analytics" say. Here are the facts, Hamilton cant hit, .274 OBP for 2015 in 2014 it was .292 his defense is very good, but I dont see a GG on his shelf, I could be wrong but I doubt he will get one this year. His bat is so abysmal that he should not be in the line up everyday.
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Post by redsfanman on Oct 5, 2015 7:36:38 GMT -5
Finnegan was not a Red when this thread was initiated. He has the talent for the rotation. As for the 4 pitchers in the title of this thread, I still see them has ultimately pitching from the bullpen. Wow, doubling down! You rock! The guy people seem the most skeptical of remaining a starter (Finnegan) is the one you believe in, fascinating. Method to your madness? Nah, just madness...
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Post by redsfanman on Oct 5, 2015 7:48:46 GMT -5
As for the Hamilton conversation, I don't see what the debate is. He's good defensively and horrible offensively. As long as there is no better candidate, he's the CF. What he isn't though is a leadoff hitter. Someone with an OBP of under .280 that doesn't also possess power is nothing more than a #8(or maybe more appropriately #9) hitter in a MLB lineup.As for the actual subject of this thread, I didn't see the game last night but from the boxscore that appears to be a nice outing for Finnegan. One that gives some hope for his future as a starter. Not just that he got in 6 full innings, or that he reached the upper 80's in pitch count, but he limited a good team that still has something to play for to a single run and four hits. I'd see next season's starting five shaping up to be five of these seven names: Iglesias, Lorenzen, Finnegan, DeSclafani, Lamb, Bailey(at some point) and Stephenson. Gives the Reds a couple of guys to consider for bullpen roles in Sampson and Moscot as well as any of the other names that aren't in the rotation. The only one I never want to see in a Reds uniform again is Josh Smith. He's god awful. Agreed. The others were saying that he doesn't deserve more than the league minimum salary, basically insisting that he is a replacement player, providing 0 WAR. I also agree that he should be a number 8 hitter, all of the time. He's obviously bad with the bat, and should use the bat as little as possible. Sampson strikes out just enough people that I could picture him being a decent reliever. The one thing that worries me is that you mentioned 5 of 7 names as potential guys in the rotation; what do we do with the other 2? Put them in the bullpen, or AAA? Neither option looks great. I think Iglesias, DeSclafani, and Bailey are locks for the rotation next year. Maybe even add Lamb to that list; a guy whose best pitch is a curveball shouldn't be pitching in the bullpen, plus his strikeout numbers are really good and suggest his poor ERA is mostly just a fluke. So where does that leave Finnegan, Lorenzen, and Stephenson? Lorenzen was truly bad this year, but he only had about 160 minor league innings before being called up, and he only had 42 college innings when he was drafted because he was a center fielder who dabbled as a closer in college. Put it this way; Sal Romano is 21, Michael Lorenzen is 23, and Romano has pitched about 125 more post high school innings than Lorenzen. Lorenzen is less experienced than his age suggests, too early to rule him out as a starter. Finnegan is 22, Stephenson is 22, both could be starters. It's really a crunch, then you've got Reed and Amir Garrett coming along well. "Where does that leave Finnegan, Lorenzen, and Stephenson?" Bailey will likely start the season on the DL, while Finnegan and Stephenson should, in my opinion, start the season in AAA. Stephenson shouldn't be promoted until midseason, after the super-two deadline. I want Finnegan to get a bit of an opportunity in AAA to work on his pitches. I see Iglesias, DeSclafani, Lamb, Lorenzen, and Moscot as being in the rotation on opening day, with Moscot likely being removed when Bailey is activated, and Lorenzen looking over his shoulder at the other candidates in AAA. The Reds might have some tough decisions for the opening day rotation, but I think they can also postpone a bunch of the biggest decisions (who to move to the bullpen) for quite some time. Also, of course, guys get injured sometimes. Or things sometimes sort themselves out.
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Post by The Duke on Oct 5, 2015 9:19:47 GMT -5
Barring injuries, I'll be shocked if the opening day rotation doesn't include all of:
Iglesias Desclafani Lamb Lorenzen
Then that fifth spot will be either Moscot, Sampson, a legit free agent pickup on a one year deal, or the Reds annual reclamation project. Bailey either takes over the fifth spot when he comes back, or Lorenzen gets booted to the bullpen if the fifth guy is performing. I think Lamb will get a little rope being a lefty and with how good his peripherals have been.
Stephenson, Finnegan, and Reed will all be in AAA, and I don't think it will absolutely be Stephenson up for the first shot in the rotation when one opens up. If one of Finnegan or Reed is killing it, I could definitely see them seasoning Stephenson more. He probably needs another half season in AAA imo.
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Post by kinsm on Oct 5, 2015 17:55:59 GMT -5
^Lorenzen is far away from being a lock for the 2016 rotation. DeSclafani, Iglesias, and Lamb (out of options) are the only 3 guarantees right now IMHO. I think you'll see this club bringing in a good number of candidates this winter to hold down the other 2 spots.
*On another note, looking at how many near mlb ready starters this club has I think Reed starts again in AA.
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Post by redsfanman on Oct 6, 2015 8:14:50 GMT -5
^Lorenzen is far away from being a lock for the 2016 rotation. DeSclafani, Iglesias, and Lamb (out of options) are the only 3 guarantees right now IMHO. I think you'll see this club bringing in a good number of candidates this winter to hold down the other 2 spots. *On another note, looking at how many near mlb ready starters this club has I think Reed starts again in AA. I don't think anyone is calling Lorenzen a lock, just projecting him into one of those final two spots. The Reds seemingly have more candidates for the AA rotation than they do for AAA. Amir Garrett, Nick Travieso, Keury Mella, Sal Romano, and Jackson Stephens seemingly all deserve spots in the AA rotation, plus Barrett Astin spent a bunch of the season in there. I think too many starters for AA pushes one to AAA, with Cody Reed being the top candidate. Stephenson, Finnegan, Lorenzen, Moscot, ______ - that's the Louisville rotation if none of those guys make the Reds. We'll see.
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Post by walstib on Oct 6, 2015 17:53:55 GMT -5
Finnegan was not a Red when this thread was initiated. He has the talent for the rotation. As for the 4 pitchers in the title of this thread, I still see them has ultimately pitching from the bullpen. Wow, doubling down! You rock! The guy people seem the most skeptical of remaining a starter (Finnegan) is the one you believe in, fascinating. Method to your madness? Nah, just madness... Wrong; perceptive observation and the ability to read extensively the thoughts of others without disparaging their opinions. You should try it sometime. You may grow as a person. Naw, that’s doubtful.
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Post by redsfanman on Oct 6, 2015 21:38:13 GMT -5
Wow, doubling down! You rock! The guy people seem the most skeptical of remaining a starter (Finnegan) is the one you believe in, fascinating. Method to your madness? Nah, just madness... Wrong; perceptive observation and the ability to read extensively the thoughts of others without disparaging their opinions. You should try it sometime. You may grow as a person. Naw, that’s doubtful. You claim "perceptive observation" and "read(ing) extensively" help form your decisions? HAHAHA. Sorry, some opinions only seem to exist to be disparaged. I've also observed these guys and read extensively about them, with practically EVERYBODY who is NOT you suggesting Lorenzen and Finnegan as the most likely guys to end up in the bullpen. As somebody so interested in sending every pitcher to the bullpen based on... I don't really have any idea what it's based on... I'm surprised you think Finnegan is the guy who can cut it as a starter. Supporting sending Finnegan and Lorenzen to the bullpen is basically the only argument that you could make which would get anyone to seriously agree with you, at this point. So taking the opposite position on Finnegan, wow. To the bullpen with DeSclafani, Iglesias, Lorenzen, and Stephenson! Rest assured, we have Brandon Finnegan.
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Post by floydgator on Oct 14, 2015 13:56:48 GMT -5
Barring injuries, I'll be shocked if the opening day rotation doesn't include all of: Iglesias Desclafani Lamb Lorenzen Then that fifth spot will be either Moscot, Sampson, a legit free agent pickup on a one year deal, or the Reds annual reclamation project. Bailey either takes over the fifth spot when he comes back, or Lorenzen gets booted to the bullpen if the fifth guy is performing. I think Lamb will get a little rope being a lefty and with how good his peripherals have been. Stephenson, Finnegan, and Reed will all be in AAA, and I don't think it will absolutely be Stephenson up for the first shot in the rotation when one opens up. If one of Finnegan or Reed is killing it, I could definitely see them seasoning Stephenson more. He probably needs another half season in AAA imo. Finnegan needs to build innings. It seems unlikely to me that Finnegan would be brought up to the rotation later in the season (for anything more than a start or two) as he will have reached whatever innings limit they have for him. In other words, he'll either be in the rotation early or not at all.
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Post by redsfanman on Oct 14, 2015 14:55:07 GMT -5
Barring injuries, I'll be shocked if the opening day rotation doesn't include all of: Iglesias Desclafani Lamb Lorenzen Then that fifth spot will be either Moscot, Sampson, a legit free agent pickup on a one year deal, or the Reds annual reclamation project. Bailey either takes over the fifth spot when he comes back, or Lorenzen gets booted to the bullpen if the fifth guy is performing. I think Lamb will get a little rope being a lefty and with how good his peripherals have been. Stephenson, Finnegan, and Reed will all be in AAA, and I don't think it will absolutely be Stephenson up for the first shot in the rotation when one opens up. If one of Finnegan or Reed is killing it, I could definitely see them seasoning Stephenson more. He probably needs another half season in AAA imo. Finnegan needs to build innings. It seems unlikely to me that Finnegan would be brought up to the rotation later in the season (for anything more than a start or two) as he will have reached whatever innings limit they have for him. In other words, he'll either be in the rotation or not at all. Yeah, Finnegan definitely needs to build innings, but despite being jerked around since signing he's ended up throwing a decent number of innings... 2014: 132.2 IP (105.2 in college, 27 in the Royals organization) 2015: 105.1 IP (between AA, AAA, and MLB, between two organizations) If they set Finnegan's inning limit 30 above his 2015 total, that's 135.1 IP. Setting it 30 above the 2014 total (as it's not been injury problems that've held him back), that's 162.2. Or DeSclafani was allowed to blow past his expected inning limit this year, jumping from 135.2 IP in 2014 to 184.2. Finnegan might get shut down (or moved to the bullpen like we saw with Lorenzen) in September, but that still leaves a lot of the season, a lot of innings. I guess it comes down to what one calls "later in the season". Stephenson is unlikely to get called up until after the super-two deadline, at the earliest, which leaves plenty of time for Finnegan to pitch well at Louisville and earn a call-up.
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Post by walstib on Oct 14, 2015 16:27:03 GMT -5
Finnegan was not a Red when this thread was initiated. He has the talent for the rotation. As for the 4 pitchers in the title of this thread, I still see them has ultimately pitching from the bullpen. DeSclafani just gave the Reds 185 innings of 4.05 ERA ball. That's the definition of a 4th/5th starter. He just proved he's a starter, FFS. Iglesias hsa clearly shown that he has the stuff to pitch in a big league rotation, as his 104 K's in 95 innings and 1.14 WHIP shows. If you don't think he has the talent to pitch in a big league rotation, then I'd suggest getting your eyes checked. Stephenson is one of the best pitching prospects in the minors who needs more seasoning. Given how the team is going to suck next year, there's no need to rush him. The only guy you listed in this thread who doesn't look like a good bet to stick in a big league rotation is Lorenzen. Fine. These are your opinions and I respect that. I will not denigrate your opinion.
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