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Post by crashdavissports on Aug 20, 2015 15:00:11 GMT -5
I don't hate Phillips. He is still worthy of being an MLB starter. But the Reds have a better option now (Suarez), and they have a reboot strategy that does not include BP in the future. Because of this, I'm just concluding that BP is the odd man out. But I don't hate Phillips. Phillips is still a better defender than Cozart is, he just plays a different position. Walt and Bob obviously feel that Phillips is part of the future or they would not have signed him to a 6 year deal. You are the one that feels he doesn't have a future here.I agree, Cozart is not a better offensive player than BP when he is in an 0-26 slump. This seems like a weird hypothetical and not really proof of anything. Are you kidding? This is the norm for Cozart. He goes into terrible funks way too often where he can't hit water if he fell out of a boat. Cozart especially goes into a funk if he is removed from the bottom of the order where pitchers decide he is not much of a threat. Phillips is capable of hitting well at any slot in the lineup, he has versatility. He has been hitting leadoff a lot this year or #2, so his job was not to be hitting home runs, his job was to be getting on base. Last night they stick him in the cleanup slot again because of Frazier's struggles and Phillips goes deep because the role of the #4 hitter is to drive in runs and hit home runs. Phillips knows how to play a role in a lineup. Cozart is lucky to make contact half the time.Having Hamilton, Bruce, Votto, and Frazier has absolutely no bearing at all on whether we or not we should strive to have elite defense at SS. None. This is a really odd argument. Why is this an odd arguement? We already have high quality fielders all over the diamond. We don't HAVE to have one at SS. It would be nice if Suarez was a gold glove caliber player, but he is serviceable. His offense makes up for his lack of glove, but he is not terrible. I am just saying, we have quality defense everywhere else with guys that are goign to remain in the lineup, so if we are looking at SS...I would rather have Suarez's offense than Cozarts glove. Not a strange argument at all.Yes, we talked about Phillips hitting 280ish. See previous posts - need to consider his power numbers too. Yes, Phillips is still a better defensive player than most MLB players, but he's not better than Cozart (whom we are comparing BP to, not 95% of the rest of the league), who is elite at a more premium defensive position. And what BP did in his prime defensively is completely irrelevant now that he is beyond his prime. Finally, offensively BP appears to be significantly behind Suarez (although time will tell). And you are right, we need Suarez in the everyday lineup for his offense. He is indeed a better fielder than Cozart, but they play different positions so it is harder to compare than Cozart defensively against Suarez defensively. No one is arguing that Cozart is better defensively than Suarez, but this team needs offense and has been lacking a true leadoff hitter and #2 hitter for years in front of Votto. We finally found our #2 hitter in Suarez, now we just need Hamilton to get his head out of his ass and he will be an ideal leadoff hitter with his speed and stolen bases. I don't care what Billy's batting average is, lead off hitters need to get on base for the RBI guys. Therefore, as long as Hamilton can get his OBP to .330-.340 he will be one of the best leadoff hitters in the game with his speed. Phillips may have dropped off a bit offensively having to hit leadoff, but his drop off is significantly better than Cozart's best.You're right, we need the guy who may be capable of being a #2 hitter in the lineup. I too am recommending that Suarez should be in the lineup everyday. Cozart should not bat #2, I agree. Phillips is now a 7/8 hitter who shouldn't bat #2 either. Wrong. Phillips fills a role. When he is batting at the top of the lineup, he is tryign to put the ball in play and get on base. When he bats in the middle of the lineup, he is driving in runs and hitting home runs. Phillips knows what a certain slot in a lineup should be doing, and he has done it well as he has batted 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th this year, I believe. He has been one of the most consistent hitters in the lineup. He also has 17 SB on the season. Why is this up from his normal SB rate? Because he has been hitting at the top of the lineup more this year. So his job is to get on base, draw walks if possible, put the ball in play, steal some bases, score runs. You look at Phillips drop off, but fail to recognize the role he has been playing in the lineup versus the last few years.I respect your opinion on keeping Phillips in the lineup, but I still disagree that Suarez/Phillips will perform better than Suarez/Cozart, and I don't think that having Phillips in the lineup aligns at all really to the reboot strategy, whereas Cozart still has 5-6 good years left. I disagree with you complete, and while you are allowed to have your opinion, I don't feel it is the right one. It may not align with a reboot strategy by playing an aging player who makes a lot of money, but Phillips is the better hitter and still a gold glove caliber player. I think offensively, this team is much better off with Phillips/Suarez, defensively, they would be better off with Phillips/Cozart. If you notice, Phillips is still in both those lists. If you agree Suarez is the best option of the 3 offensively, then Cozart is the odd man out in this case. Because offensively, it goes Suarez, Phillips, Cozart. Defensively it goes: Phillips, Cozart, Suarez.
Phillips 1st and 2nd - 3 points Suarez 1st and 3rd - 4 points Cozart 2nd and 3rd - 5 pointsShall we move on now and just agree to disagree? I'm totally fine with having different opinions. I have agreed to do that a long time ago, which is why I have been arguing with you from the beginning of this thread.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2015 15:16:05 GMT -5
Well, one more time... until you show me who the Reds have on the opening day roster to put in LF that is superior to Cozart offensively, I have to say Cozart SS, Suarez LF. I think that is the way to go until they have a LF solution. So you would have the Reds, in what most would agree is a lost season next year, move the SS of the future, who needs to improve his infield defense, to the outfield to make room for a terrible SS who'll be 31 years old and out of team control after the season? FFS. Some of you dudes crack me up. Wow, what a disaster it would be to put a young athletic guy in LF for half a season or a full season at most. I'm sure that would just ruin his future.... you do realize even Adam Dunn played LF, right? And I am only suggesting that because at this moment there is no better solution for LF, so it is subject to change. Bryan Price is suggesting they try Suarez out as a super-utility guy, I'm just saying let him hold down the fort as the LF if they don't have a better solution. YRod has million dollar tools and a 10 cent head, Boesch and the others just can't hit as well as Cozart. I know you guys hate Cozart and he is what he is, good fielder with a mediocre bat. But no other 8th guy for the lineup is better than him at this moment. And if it comes down to who you use at SS between Cozart and Suarez(if they are both in the lineup) thats a no-brainer. Cozart's main assest will always be his glove.
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Post by vtreds22 on Aug 20, 2015 16:15:53 GMT -5
It would be a mistake to move Suarez off SS next season. He's had troubles with the glove this season. If you're going to give him a legitimate shot at being the SS of the future, then it makes absolutely no sense to move him off of the position. He needs to continue to grow and develop as a SS next year. It's not even really debatable.
There will be options for LF. They may not necessarily be good options, but they're options nonetheless. We're not going to be good next season, so why on Earth is it imperative to get Cozart's glove out there?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2015 17:35:19 GMT -5
It would be a mistake to move Suarez off SS next season. He's had troubles with the glove this season. If you're going to give him a legitimate shot at being the SS of the future, then it makes absolutely no sense to move him off of the position. He needs to continue to grow and develop as a SS next year. It's not even really debatable. There will be options for LF. They may not necessarily be good options, but they're options nonetheless. We're not going to be good next season, so why on Earth is it imperative to get Cozart's glove out there? I'm not saying it's imperative to get Cozart's glove in there. An elementary reading level could prove that if you care to go back and check. What I am saying is that if Cozart was performing at his average offensively, there isn't a better offensive option that is mlb ready(and I am well aware of how pathetic of a truth that is). Who would it be? LaMarre, Boesch, Schumaker, YRod? So if you are going with the best 8 available Cozart and Suarez are two of them. Cozart is superior defensively at SS. Why is everyone freaking out at the thought of moving a guy from what looks to be his future position? It isn't like there isn't plenty of history of guys moving off their spot in order to get into the lineup. Not just in mlb history, but Reds history. Pete Rose moved several times, Tony Perez spent several seasons at 3b, as did Dan Driessen. Brandon Phillips moved and never went back. It really isn't a big deal at all.
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Post by vtreds22 on Aug 20, 2015 17:43:49 GMT -5
It would be a mistake to move Suarez off SS next season. He's had troubles with the glove this season. If you're going to give him a legitimate shot at being the SS of the future, then it makes absolutely no sense to move him off of the position. He needs to continue to grow and develop as a SS next year. It's not even really debatable. There will be options for LF. They may not necessarily be good options, but they're options nonetheless. We're not going to be good next season, so why on Earth is it imperative to get Cozart's glove out there? I'm not saying it's imperative to get Cozart's glove in there. An elementary reading level could prove that if you care to go back and check. What I am saying is that if Cozart was performing at his average offensively, there isn't a better offensive option that is mlb ready(and I am well aware of how pathetic of a truth that is). Who would it be? LaMarre, Boesch, Schumaker, YRod? So if you are going with the best 8 available Cozart and Suarez are two of them. Cozart is superior defensively at SS. Why is everyone freaking out at the thought of moving a guy from what looks to be his future position? It isn't like there isn't plenty of history of guys moving off their spot in order to get into the lineup. Not just in mlb history, but Reds history. Pete Rose moved several times, Tony Perez spent several seasons at 3b, as did Dan Driessen. Brandon Phillips moved and never went back. It really isn't a big deal at all. We're not going to be good next season, with or without Cozart. Moving Suarez off his position for a year just to accommodate Cozart would be a detriment to his development, and there is absolutely no point in doing so when you're not planning on being competitive anyway. Next season isn't about getting the best possible eight in the lineup (and it's highly debatable whether or not Cozart is) and winning as many games as possible. It's a rebuilding and development year. Again, when that is your goal, moving Suarez off his position isn't just pointless, but it slows his development as a SS. He has struggled defensively this season and needs all the work he can get. I don't even see how this is a debate.
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devils
Ted Kluszewski
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Post by devils on Aug 21, 2015 12:01:44 GMT -5
Suarez must be in that lineup everyday and yes at ss!! I've seen enough of cozart and his bad average!! Suarez would be a good fit in that 2 hole if Billy could just get to a 260 average we might be in business!!
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Post by scottscudder on Aug 21, 2015 22:45:07 GMT -5
I don't hate Phillips. He is still worthy of being an MLB starter. But the Reds have a better option now (Suarez), and they have a reboot strategy that does not include BP in the future. Because of this, I'm just concluding that BP is the odd man out. But I don't hate Phillips. Phillips is still a better defender than Cozart is, he just plays a different position. Walt and Bob obviously feel that Phillips is part of the future or they would not have signed him to a 6 year deal. You are the one that feels he doesn't have a future here.I agree, Cozart is not a better offensive player than BP when he is in an 0-26 slump. This seems like a weird hypothetical and not really proof of anything. Are you kidding? This is the norm for Cozart. He goes into terrible funks way too often where he can't hit water if he fell out of a boat. Cozart especially goes into a funk if he is removed from the bottom of the order where pitchers decide he is not much of a threat. Phillips is capable of hitting well at any slot in the lineup, he has versatility. He has been hitting leadoff a lot this year or #2, so his job was not to be hitting home runs, his job was to be getting on base. Last night they stick him in the cleanup slot again because of Frazier's struggles and Phillips goes deep because the role of the #4 hitter is to drive in runs and hit home runs. Phillips knows how to play a role in a lineup. Cozart is lucky to make contact half the time.Having Hamilton, Bruce, Votto, and Frazier has absolutely no bearing at all on whether we or not we should strive to have elite defense at SS. None. This is a really odd argument. Why is this an odd arguement? We already have high quality fielders all over the diamond. We don't HAVE to have one at SS. It would be nice if Suarez was a gold glove caliber player, but he is serviceable. His offense makes up for his lack of glove, but he is not terrible. I am just saying, we have quality defense everywhere else with guys that are goign to remain in the lineup, so if we are looking at SS...I would rather have Suarez's offense than Cozarts glove. Not a strange argument at all.Yes, we talked about Phillips hitting 280ish. See previous posts - need to consider his power numbers too. Yes, Phillips is still a better defensive player than most MLB players, but he's not better than Cozart (whom we are comparing BP to, not 95% of the rest of the league), who is elite at a more premium defensive position. And what BP did in his prime defensively is completely irrelevant now that he is beyond his prime. Finally, offensively BP appears to be significantly behind Suarez (although time will tell). And you are right, we need Suarez in the everyday lineup for his offense. He is indeed a better fielder than Cozart, but they play different positions so it is harder to compare than Cozart defensively against Suarez defensively. No one is arguing that Cozart is better defensively than Suarez, but this team needs offense and has been lacking a true leadoff hitter and #2 hitter for years in front of Votto. We finally found our #2 hitter in Suarez, now we just need Hamilton to get his head out of his ass and he will be an ideal leadoff hitter with his speed and stolen bases. I don't care what Billy's batting average is, lead off hitters need to get on base for the RBI guys. Therefore, as long as Hamilton can get his OBP to .330-.340 he will be one of the best leadoff hitters in the game with his speed. Phillips may have dropped off a bit offensively having to hit leadoff, but his drop off is significantly better than Cozart's best.You're right, we need the guy who may be capable of being a #2 hitter in the lineup. I too am recommending that Suarez should be in the lineup everyday. Cozart should not bat #2, I agree. Phillips is now a 7/8 hitter who shouldn't bat #2 either. Wrong. Phillips fills a role. When he is batting at the top of the lineup, he is tryign to put the ball in play and get on base. When he bats in the middle of the lineup, he is driving in runs and hitting home runs. Phillips knows what a certain slot in a lineup should be doing, and he has done it well as he has batted 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th this year, I believe. He has been one of the most consistent hitters in the lineup. He also has 17 SB on the season. Why is this up from his normal SB rate? Because he has been hitting at the top of the lineup more this year. So his job is to get on base, draw walks if possible, put the ball in play, steal some bases, score runs. You look at Phillips drop off, but fail to recognize the role he has been playing in the lineup versus the last few years.I respect your opinion on keeping Phillips in the lineup, but I still disagree that Suarez/Phillips will perform better than Suarez/Cozart, and I don't think that having Phillips in the lineup aligns at all really to the reboot strategy, whereas Cozart still has 5-6 good years left. I disagree with you complete, and while you are allowed to have your opinion, I don't feel it is the right one. It may not align with a reboot strategy by playing an aging player who makes a lot of money, but Phillips is the better hitter and still a gold glove caliber player. I think offensively, this team is much better off with Phillips/Suarez, defensively, they would be better off with Phillips/Cozart. If you notice, Phillips is still in both those lists. If you agree Suarez is the best option of the 3 offensively, then Cozart is the odd man out in this case. Because offensively, it goes Suarez, Phillips, Cozart. Defensively it goes: Phillips, Cozart, Suarez.
Phillips 1st and 2nd - 3 points Suarez 1st and 3rd - 4 points Cozart 2nd and 3rd - 5 pointsShall we move on now and just agree to disagree? I'm totally fine with having different opinions. I have agreed to do that a long time ago, which is why I have been arguing with you from the beginning of this thread.Crash, let's just pose the questions to the Board here and see what people think. I would be especially interested in VT's thoughts. 1) Does anyone else feel Phillips, who has declined a bit defensively at 2B (see VTs post earlier in this thread), is more valuable defensively than Cozart, who plays elite defense at a more premium position (SS)? 2) Does anyone else feel that having Hamilton, Bruce, Votto, and Frazier makes it less important to have great defense at SS? 3) Does anyone else feel that Phillips is still a top of the order hitter? (.303 OBP when batting first in the lineup this year)
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Post by redsfanman on Aug 21, 2015 23:22:05 GMT -5
Crash, let's just pose the questions to the Board here and see what people think. I would be especially interested in VT's thoughts. 1) Does anyone else feel Phillips, who has declined a bit defensively at 2B (see VTs post earlier in this thread), is more valuable defensively than Cozart, who plays elite defense at a more premium position (SS)? 2) Does anyone else feel that having Hamilton, Bruce, Votto, and Frazier makes it less important to have great defense at SS? 3) Does anyone else feel that Phillips is still a top of the order hitter? (.303 OBP when batting first in the lineup this year) 1. As far as whether Cozart or Phillips' defense is more valuable, who cares, they play different positions. Cozart is easy to move on from while Phillips will remain with the team, vetoing any potential trade. Phillips is the Reds' 2b, Cozart's job is up in the air. 2. No. But I think several factors balance out for Cozart's reputation as a better defender. I call it his 'reputation' because he's coming off a major injury and Suarez has room to improve, struggling more with clumsy-ish issues than lack of talent. 3. Someone has to hit leadoff, we learned that long ago. Phillips has never been an ideal leadoff hitter, but nobody else on the Reds is either. Based on what the Reds do and don't have he's currently a top of the order hitter. Personally I'd prefer Billy Hamilton to return to that role, even though his OBP is far worse than Phillips'. Personally I think the third candidate, Suarez, is an even worse fit for that role than Phillips and Hamilton.
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Post by vtreds22 on Aug 22, 2015 10:28:46 GMT -5
I don't hate Phillips. He is still worthy of being an MLB starter. But the Reds have a better option now (Suarez), and they have a reboot strategy that does not include BP in the future. Because of this, I'm just concluding that BP is the odd man out. But I don't hate Phillips. Phillips is still a better defender than Cozart is, he just plays a different position. Walt and Bob obviously feel that Phillips is part of the future or they would not have signed him to a 6 year deal. You are the one that feels he doesn't have a future here.I agree, Cozart is not a better offensive player than BP when he is in an 0-26 slump. This seems like a weird hypothetical and not really proof of anything. Are you kidding? This is the norm for Cozart. He goes into terrible funks way too often where he can't hit water if he fell out of a boat. Cozart especially goes into a funk if he is removed from the bottom of the order where pitchers decide he is not much of a threat. Phillips is capable of hitting well at any slot in the lineup, he has versatility. He has been hitting leadoff a lot this year or #2, so his job was not to be hitting home runs, his job was to be getting on base. Last night they stick him in the cleanup slot again because of Frazier's struggles and Phillips goes deep because the role of the #4 hitter is to drive in runs and hit home runs. Phillips knows how to play a role in a lineup. Cozart is lucky to make contact half the time.Having Hamilton, Bruce, Votto, and Frazier has absolutely no bearing at all on whether we or not we should strive to have elite defense at SS. None. This is a really odd argument. Why is this an odd arguement? We already have high quality fielders all over the diamond. We don't HAVE to have one at SS. It would be nice if Suarez was a gold glove caliber player, but he is serviceable. His offense makes up for his lack of glove, but he is not terrible. I am just saying, we have quality defense everywhere else with guys that are goign to remain in the lineup, so if we are looking at SS...I would rather have Suarez's offense than Cozarts glove. Not a strange argument at all.Yes, we talked about Phillips hitting 280ish. See previous posts - need to consider his power numbers too. Yes, Phillips is still a better defensive player than most MLB players, but he's not better than Cozart (whom we are comparing BP to, not 95% of the rest of the league), who is elite at a more premium defensive position. And what BP did in his prime defensively is completely irrelevant now that he is beyond his prime. Finally, offensively BP appears to be significantly behind Suarez (although time will tell). And you are right, we need Suarez in the everyday lineup for his offense. He is indeed a better fielder than Cozart, but they play different positions so it is harder to compare than Cozart defensively against Suarez defensively. No one is arguing that Cozart is better defensively than Suarez, but this team needs offense and has been lacking a true leadoff hitter and #2 hitter for years in front of Votto. We finally found our #2 hitter in Suarez, now we just need Hamilton to get his head out of his ass and he will be an ideal leadoff hitter with his speed and stolen bases. I don't care what Billy's batting average is, lead off hitters need to get on base for the RBI guys. Therefore, as long as Hamilton can get his OBP to .330-.340 he will be one of the best leadoff hitters in the game with his speed. Phillips may have dropped off a bit offensively having to hit leadoff, but his drop off is significantly better than Cozart's best.You're right, we need the guy who may be capable of being a #2 hitter in the lineup. I too am recommending that Suarez should be in the lineup everyday. Cozart should not bat #2, I agree. Phillips is now a 7/8 hitter who shouldn't bat #2 either. Wrong. Phillips fills a role. When he is batting at the top of the lineup, he is tryign to put the ball in play and get on base. When he bats in the middle of the lineup, he is driving in runs and hitting home runs. Phillips knows what a certain slot in a lineup should be doing, and he has done it well as he has batted 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th this year, I believe. He has been one of the most consistent hitters in the lineup. He also has 17 SB on the season. Why is this up from his normal SB rate? Because he has been hitting at the top of the lineup more this year. So his job is to get on base, draw walks if possible, put the ball in play, steal some bases, score runs. You look at Phillips drop off, but fail to recognize the role he has been playing in the lineup versus the last few years.I respect your opinion on keeping Phillips in the lineup, but I still disagree that Suarez/Phillips will perform better than Suarez/Cozart, and I don't think that having Phillips in the lineup aligns at all really to the reboot strategy, whereas Cozart still has 5-6 good years left. I disagree with you complete, and while you are allowed to have your opinion, I don't feel it is the right one. It may not align with a reboot strategy by playing an aging player who makes a lot of money, but Phillips is the better hitter and still a gold glove caliber player. I think offensively, this team is much better off with Phillips/Suarez, defensively, they would be better off with Phillips/Cozart. If you notice, Phillips is still in both those lists. If you agree Suarez is the best option of the 3 offensively, then Cozart is the odd man out in this case. Because offensively, it goes Suarez, Phillips, Cozart. Defensively it goes: Phillips, Cozart, Suarez.
Phillips 1st and 2nd - 3 points Suarez 1st and 3rd - 4 points Cozart 2nd and 3rd - 5 pointsShall we move on now and just agree to disagree? I'm totally fine with having different opinions. I have agreed to do that a long time ago, which is why I have been arguing with you from the beginning of this thread.Crash, let's just pose the questions to the Board here and see what people think. I would be especially interested in VT's thoughts. 1) Does anyone else feel Phillips, who has declined a bit defensively at 2B (see VTs post earlier in this thread), is more valuable defensively than Cozart, who plays elite defense at a more premium position (SS)? 2) Does anyone else feel that having Hamilton, Bruce, Votto, and Frazier makes it less important to have great defense at SS? 3) Does anyone else feel that Phillips is still a top of the order hitter? (.303 OBP when batting first in the lineup this year) 1) Cozart is a better defensive SS than BP is defensive 2B at this stage of their careers. 2) No. 3) He's not. Neither is Cozart. Unfortunately for the Reds, they don't have top of the order hitters. Full disclosure, I don't think these questions are very relevant at all to this "debate". BP is going to be here for two more years and I've accepted that. Cozart's future with the Reds is very much up in the air with the emergence of Suarez. I fully believe that Suarez should be the everyday SS next season, and I would try to move Cozart this winter, if at all possible. I would be completely fine if the Reds declined to offer him arbitration and just moved on as well.
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Post by kinsm on Aug 24, 2015 20:35:39 GMT -5
Cozart should be traded the moment he passes a physical. ^What he said!
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Post by general on Aug 24, 2015 20:39:03 GMT -5
I really like Suarez's bat. He obviously has some work to do in the field, but I think he's better than he's shown.
Suarez and Cozart could be a decent middle infield next year. I would put Suarez at 2B.
I think Cozart's 2015 before he got hurt was a bit of a fluke. That said, I don't see him going anywhere. He is the better fielder, so this is a possible scenario I can see happening.
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Post by kinsm on Aug 24, 2015 20:53:59 GMT -5
24 years old - made only 4 errors in his last 40 starts.
Absolutely no reason, what so f'ng ever, that he should be moved off SS any time soon.
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Post by redskoolaiddrinker on Aug 24, 2015 20:58:38 GMT -5
Cozart should be traded the moment he passes a physical. ^What he said! I agree with the both of you--err the one of you--whatever, what he/ they said.
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Post by general on Aug 25, 2015 9:26:30 GMT -5
24 years old - made only 4 errors in his last 40 starts. Absolutely no reason, what so f'ng ever, that he should be moved off SS any time soon. That is what I see them doing. I don't see this team being creative enough to make a trade involving Cozart or Suarez. It's best to just think of what will be the laziest route to take, and I see that as Cozart at SS with Suarez splitting time at 2B/SS/3B. Brandon Phillips is likely to get hurt next season and they can use Todd Frazier in LF. It's really hard to imagine any creative trades happening.
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Post by The Duke on Aug 25, 2015 9:50:40 GMT -5
Cozart should be traded the moment he passes a physical. ^What he said! I agree with both sides of his personality disorder.
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