Why don't hitters take advantage of the shift.

[flash]

While I was watching the game yesterday i saw various times when the shift against left-handed batters like Votto were used. I cannot understand why the batters just don't take the base hit given to them rather than trying tobust the shift. It seems like it is just like an intentional walk used to be. I only saw one player ever try to hit the far outside pitch. (Rose did it once. Bench got caught looking at a fake pitch-out in the 72 series.) Why not just take the base given to you. Bunt to the left side. Take the base.

[Deleted]

May 7, 2018 16:57:10 GMT -5 flash said:

While I was watching the game yesterday i saw various times when the shift against left-handed batters like Votto were used. I cannot understand why the batters just don't take the base hit given to them rather than trying tobust the shift. It seems like it is just like an intentional walk used to be. I only saw one player ever try to hit the far outside pitch. (Rose did it once. Bench got caught looking at a fake pitch-out in the 72 series.) Why not just take the base given to you. Bunt to the left side. Take the base.

I agree with you Flash. Tucker Barnhart has layed down a couple bunts against it already for hits this season. If you noticed yeterday the Marlins did not use the shift against Tucker. I know Votto had a huge game yesterday and we don't wanna see him bunt much at all. But if he is up with bases empty a few times why not just lay one down. It might not stop it against Votto but it might at least slow it down some to where the 3rd baseman isn't playing 2b.
Same with Schebler and Gennett.

[searay]

A very good point. There are many times that a bunt base hit would be beneficial. I do not see why hitters don't take more advantage and why they don't practice the skill to take advantage. The reason for doing so goes so much further than getting on base. A player should do this so that opposing teams quit using the shift. That's the point that gets lost on all of this. Make them pay for it and think twice about deploying it

[crashdavissports]

1) It is not very easy to hit anything a major league pitcher throws.

2) The pitcher is pitching to a location which leads to that particular hitter usually putting it in that area most frequently.

3) Bunting is obviously not that easy as Hamilton is pretty bad at it considering his best attribute is speed and is a switch hitter.

4) If you get the bunt down, you have to bunt it so hard that it makes it to the 3rd base bag otherwise you are allowing the pitcher an easy out.

5) Votto is probably as likely to hit a home run in that same situation as he is getting down a great bunt hard enough to make it to 3rd base away from the pitcher.

[Brutus23]

Chicks dig the long ball....


Just saying

[cbassxu]

May 8, 2018 11:15:17 GMT -5 crashdavissports said:

1) It is not very easy to hit anything a major league pitcher throws.

2) The pitcher is pitching to a location which leads to that particular hitter usually putting it in that area most frequently.

3) Bunting is obviously not that easy as Hamilton is pretty bad at it considering his best attribute is speed and is a switch hitter.

4) If you get the bunt down, you have to bunt it so hard that it makes it to the 3rd base bag otherwise you are allowing the pitcher an easy out.

5) Votto is probably as likely to hit a home run in that same situation as he is getting down a great bunt hard enough to make it to 3rd base away from the pitcher.

I think this sums it up fairly well.

Also, 1 or 2 bunts isn't going to erase a mountain of data that tells you to shift a guy.  A batter would have to do it consistently for weeks before a team would consider changing their shifting strategy on him.

[crashdavissports]

May 8, 2018 13:50:52 GMT -5 cbassxu said:

May 8, 2018 11:15:17 GMT -5 crashdavissports said:

1) It is not very easy to hit anything a major league pitcher throws.

2) The pitcher is pitching to a location which leads to that particular hitter usually putting it in that area most frequently.

3) Bunting is obviously not that easy as Hamilton is pretty bad at it considering his best attribute is speed and is a switch hitter.

4) If you get the bunt down, you have to bunt it so hard that it makes it to the 3rd base bag otherwise you are allowing the pitcher an easy out.

5) Votto is probably as likely to hit a home run in that same situation as he is getting down a great bunt hard enough to make it to 3rd base away from the pitcher.

I think this sums it up fairly well.

Also, 1 or 2 bunts isn't going to erase a mountain of data that tells you to shift a guy.  A batter would have to do it consistently for weeks before a team would consider changing their shifting strategy on him.

Plus, wouldn't you think if this changes a great hitters approach at the plate and forcing them to try and bunt for a hit, which would still lead to a large amount of outs, that they would change their approach? I would force Votto to try and push bunt every at bat. I would certainly do it to Stanton and Judge. If I could make a hitter change his entire approach at the plate that made him a successful big leaguer, I would do it.

[searay]

May 8, 2018 11:15:17 GMT -5 crashdavissports said:

1) It is not very easy to hit anything a major league pitcher throws.

2) The pitcher is pitching to a location which leads to that particular hitter usually putting it in that area most frequently.

3) Bunting is obviously not that easy as Hamilton is pretty bad at it considering his best attribute is speed and is a switch hitter.

4) If you get the bunt down, you have to bunt it so hard that it makes it to the 3rd base bag otherwise you are allowing the pitcher an easy out.

5) Votto is probably as likely to hit a home run in that same situation as he is getting down a great bunt hard enough to make it to 3rd base away from the pitcher.

These are great athletes. I can't believe they can't learn to push a bunt to the left side but you may be right. I think there are instances that a bunt should be used but rarely is. 

[cbassxu]

May 8, 2018 14:26:43 GMT -5 searay said:

May 8, 2018 11:15:17 GMT -5 crashdavissports said:

1) It is not very easy to hit anything a major league pitcher throws.

2) The pitcher is pitching to a location which leads to that particular hitter usually putting it in that area most frequently.

3) Bunting is obviously not that easy as Hamilton is pretty bad at it considering his best attribute is speed and is a switch hitter.

4) If you get the bunt down, you have to bunt it so hard that it makes it to the 3rd base bag otherwise you are allowing the pitcher an easy out.

5) Votto is probably as likely to hit a home run in that same situation as he is getting down a great bunt hard enough to make it to 3rd base away from the pitcher.

These are great athletes. I can't believe they can't learn to push a bunt to the left side but you may be right. I think there are instances that a bunt should be used but rarely is. 

I don't think it's necessarily a question of can they learn, it's a question of should they be spending the extra time on that or something else in their hitting to work on.

And so #3 in Crash's breakdown, Billy has been "working on his bunting" every year for the last 4 years and is still terrible at it.

[searay]

May 8, 2018 15:20:53 GMT -5 cbassxu said:

May 8, 2018 14:26:43 GMT -5 searay said:

These are great athletes. I can't believe they can't learn to push a bunt to the left side but you may be right. I think there are instances that a bunt should be used but rarely is. 

I don't think it's necessarily a question of can they learn, it's a question of should they be spending the extra time on that or something else in their hitting to work on.

And so #3 in Crash's breakdown, Billy has been "working on his bunting" every year for the last 4 years and is still terrible at it.

I think Billy's pretty good at bunting. His problem is that team's have taken the bunt away from him with less than 2 strikes. Teams do that. I've seen him get thrown out on some awfully nice bunts because the 3B is playing in

[crashdavissports]

I agree. These are great athletes, but it seems the art of bunting has been lost over the years as guys want paid, and you get paid if you are driving in runs and hitting the long ball.

However, with that said, even if Votto was willing to hone this craft, how much more does this play into the hands of the opposing teams if they are making Votto bunt towards 3rd every at bat? The spin on a ball, the location, the angle of the pitchers arm upon release and then the hitter has to deal with squaring this up where there is a small margin of error between the 3rd base line, and the pitcher, especially since the pitcher knows he is the only form of defense on that side. He is attacking the 3rd base line like someone shot him out of a rocket. So now you have a very hard pitch to probably hit, which is going to be down and in anyways with all the players on the right side of the infield, but you have to hit it the opposite way and make sure you hit it on the ground, but hard enough to get by the pitcher or directly on the line far enough away from the catcher, and hope you are fast enough to leg it out.

So unless you have Billy Hamilton speed, you have to catch a defense off guard by squaring at the last second, placing a near perfect bunt against a pitch that is angling down and in on you as a left handed hitter against a right handed pitcher. If I can make Joey Votto try to do this every at bat against my team, I win more often than not, and if he wins, we are looking at a weak infield single. I just basically took the bat out of a guys hands who is going to have close to 70 extra base hits a year.

I am just saying, which is why I think hitters keep trying to hit the ball hard even into the shift at times. If you can elevate the hit over the infield, the shift means very little.

[Deleted]

Flash this is off topic. But I really enjoy reading your posts. I remember you from the old enquirer message boards. From what I can tell you are a few years older than me. You talk some about the late 60 early 70s teams. I first remember watching around 73-74. I know you love the young minor leaguers as well.

[flash]

Thanks for the compliment. I started paying attention in 67.

[searay]

I remember watching the 1972 World Series but I followed it religiously in 1973. I think that was Al Michaels last yr with the team

[Deleted]

May 10, 2018 19:45:23 GMT -5 searay said:

I remember watching the 1972 World Series but I followed it religiously in 1973. I think that was Al Michaels last yr with the team

Yes that was Michaels last year. Marty came along in 74. I have a old record album of the 1970 season highlights. Joe Nuxall and Jim McIntyre. I believe McIntyre had cancer and 70 was his last season. I think Al worked with Joe from 71-73.