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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 17:29:55 GMT -5
Hard to believe this thread has had such life. In my opinion this one is rather easily solved, not because it comes down to Cozart vs Suarez, instead I think of it more as the 8 best position players they will have at the start of 2016. You have to make a lot of assumptions since there could be trades and assuming Cozart is ready on opening day. We also have to assume Marlon Byrd won't be manning LF. So the black hole in LF is filled by who? YRod? God I hope not... he'll have you begging to see Cozart in the lineup. Winker or Waldrop? Nothing in 2015 has indicated either will be ready for MLB action next year. Bourgeois? Boesch? Some other retread? It seems to me that unless they come up with an offensively superior LF to Cozart's bat then you go with Suarez in LF and Cozart at SS. When Winker or Waldrop is ready then Suarez(assuming he is outperforming Cozart at the plate) goes to SS.
and don't even get me started on CF, because Cozart is better offensively than Hamilton too. I just don't know that they could juggle the positions enough to fill CF defensively with Cozart and Suarez.
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Post by redskoolaiddrinker on Aug 19, 2015 19:02:23 GMT -5
Hard to believe this thread has had such life. In my opinion this one is rather easily solved, not because it comes down to Cozart vs Suarez, instead I think of it more as the 8 best position players they will have at the start of 2016. You have to make a lot of assumptions since there could be trades and assuming Cozart is ready on opening day. We also have to assume Marlon Byrd won't be manning LF. So the black hole in LF is filled by who? YRod? God I hope not... he'll have you begging to see Cozart in the lineup. Winker or Waldrop? Nothing in 2015 has indicated either will be ready for MLB action next year. Bourgeois? Boesch? Some other retread? It seems to me that unless they come up with an offensively superior LF to Cozart's bat then you go with Suarez in LF and Cozart at SS. When Winker or Waldrop is ready then Suarez(assuming he is outperforming Cozart at the plate) goes to SS. and don't even get me started on CF, because Cozart is better offensively than Hamilton too. I just don't know that they could juggle the positions enough to fill CF defensively with Cozart and Suarez. I'm for letting YRod get his feet wet playing regularly next year. It's not like we're going to be contenders except maybe for the first pick in the draft.
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Post by scottscudder on Aug 19, 2015 21:45:29 GMT -5
You can use virtually any statistic that you want (especially the ones that adjust for park factors, since Cozart plays in a bandbox) and they will all tell you that Cozart is not a good offensive baseball player. He was below average (even for his position) in 2012 and 2013. In 2014, he was arguably the worst regular (offensively) in all of MLB. And you're using a 200 PA sample size as evidence that he's an average hitting SS? Why, when you have nearly 2000 to go by prior to this year? You can tell others to agree to disagree all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that Cozart isn't a good hitter. Or even average. Yes, even for his position. He's not. The numbers are there. Use something other than raw OPS that rewards him for playing half his games in probably the 2nd most hitter friendly stadium (especially for home runs) in MLB. Even using raw OPS, he's still below average... And again, there is no chance Cozart will be here in his mid 30s. You're making a below average player out to be some key piece to the future when he's entirely replaceable. Given how you've already compared him to a borderline HOF, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. There's nothing wrong with having favorite players, and if Cozart is one of yours then that's great. He's not very good however (as virtually any stat will show you) and he likely won't be here for much longer. The Reds aren't going to give a LTC to a light hitting SS, entering his 30s, when they're rebuilding and already have someone cheaper (and probably better) ready to take his place. Based on OPS, Cozart has ranked in the middle third of SS offensively three of the past four years. That feels fairly average to me. The outlier year is 2014, which I admit, was terrible. You may want to define "average" differently, and that's fine. I'm not just using his 200 PAs in 2015. I double checked my post, and yup, there it is, 4 years of data that I provided to you. And even regarding 2015, I recognized the low sample size and showed where his career numbers would have slotted in this year, even though he was on his way to performing better than his career numbers. Not sure why you think I'm not considering his PAs prior to this year. There is no evidence of that. Sure, I think it would be interesting to include ballpark factors too. But let's for a moment bring this back to the core discussion point, which is not where Cozart ranks among MLB shortstops, it's the decision the Reds may need to make between Suarez, Cozart, and BP (if Suarez doesn't end up in LF). And last I checked, they play in the same ballpark, so BP's power numbers probably won't fare any better relative to Cozart when you consider ballpark factors for him. And regarding BP, I still fail to see where anyone in this thread has put together anything close to a solid defense and reasoning for keeping him in the lineup. I'm still waiting to see any evidence that BP isn't in decline defensively and isn't potentially now less valuable than Cozart (an elite defensive SS) at this point on defense, or that his offense is so significantly good that he is still a "must have" in the lineup. There's also zero evidence that he has a future with the club, and you've already admitted that it would make sense to pull BP from the lineup before Cozart if it was possible. The argument in support of BP pretty much seems to hinge on batting average, he was great in his prime, he's being paid to much to bench, and he won't accept a trade. None of these arguments really convince me that starting BP is important to the Reds being a better team in 2017 or 2018, which is now the goal. I think I've done plenty to show that there is room for my opinion in this discussion, providing easily as much evidence and reasoning as has been provided in support of Phillips. Still, I respect your preference to play BP everyday. Maybe we should just move on?
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Post by scottscudder on Aug 19, 2015 22:16:24 GMT -5
I don't know what you have such a love for Cozart for and such a hate for Phillips. Does Phillips hit as many home runs anymore? No. Does Cozart hit more home runs? Yes. Who cares if he can only make contact at half the rate of Phillips? Phillips is batting .280'ish, with 17 SB, still scoring runs, driving runs in, is versatile, and while he may have lost a little range, his glove is still light years ahead of 95% of all players in all of major league baseball. Phillips in his prime may have been the best defensive second baseman in the history of the game. If you can honestly tell me that Cozart is still the best option over Phillips while Cozart is in a 0-26 slump, his batting average is teetering around mendoza, and his OBP is actually less than Phillips batting average...then I guess you can call yourself a true fan of that player. Because there is no one that would take Cozart over Phillips at their current ages if salary was equal. Cozart has been such a disappointment from the word go, that there is no where to go for him but up. But just because he was having a little better year does not make him the next great SS. I like Cozart's power and defense, but outside those two attributes he is almost worthless on the diamond. We do not need a defensive first SS when the current option on the team is not terrible at defense and is capable of being the perfect #2 hitter that we have been searching for. The second you take Cozart out of the bottom of the lineup, he looks like crap. How many times have we tried to insert Cozart into the leadoff or #2 hole in the lineup as he got hot? Then of those times how many times did he go into the tank immediately following that promotion? EVERY SINGLE TIME! His defense is not what this team needs when we struggle offensively to score runs. We need a hitter in as many slots of our lineup as we can get without completely sacrificing defense. We have probably the best defensive CF in all of baseball. Bruce is pretty dang good in RF. Phillips is still gold glove caliber. Votto has won a gold glove before. Frazier was looking like he could be a gold glover at one point. We have some good defense, we don't need a defensive only SS to be in our lineup every day. Now, I didn't say there wasn't a place for him on this team, I just don't see it as a starter. I like his defense for later in games at 3B, SS. I like his power off the bench. I see him as a good filler if Phillips is hurt, or Suarez, or even for that matter Frazier. He has a valuable role on this team still, just not as a starter unless it is due to injury. I don't hate Phillips. He is still worthy of being an MLB starter. But the Reds have a better option now (Suarez), and they have a reboot strategy that does not include BP in the future. Because of this, I'm just concluding that BP is the odd man out. But I don't hate Phillips. I agree, Cozart is not a better offensive player than BP when he is in an 0-26 slump. This seems like a weird hypothetical and not really proof of anything. Having Hamilton, Bruce, Votto, and Frazier has absolutely no bearing at all on whether we or not we should strive to have elite defense at SS. None. This is a really odd argument. Yes, we talked about Phillips hitting 280ish. See previous posts - need to consider his power numbers too. Yes, Phillips is still a better defensive player than most MLB players, but he's not better than Cozart (whom we are comparing BP to, not 95% of the rest of the league), who is elite at a more premium defensive position. And what BP did in his prime defensively is completely irrelevant now that he is beyond his prime. Finally, offensively BP appears to be significantly behind Suarez (although time will tell). And you are right, we need Suarez in the everyday lineup for his offense. You're right, we need the guy who may be capable of being a #2 hitter in the lineup. I too am recommending that Suarez should be in the lineup everyday. Cozart should not bat #2, I agree. Phillips is now a 7/8 hitter who shouldn't bat #2 either. I respect your opinion on keeping Phillips in the lineup, but I still disagree that Suarez/Phillips will perform better than Suarez/Cozart, and I don't think that having Phillips in the lineup aligns at all really to the reboot strategy, whereas Cozart still has 5-6 good years left. Shall we move on now and just agree to disagree? I'm totally fine with having different opinions.
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Post by vtreds22 on Aug 19, 2015 22:39:07 GMT -5
You can use virtually any statistic that you want (especially the ones that adjust for park factors, since Cozart plays in a bandbox) and they will all tell you that Cozart is not a good offensive baseball player. He was below average (even for his position) in 2012 and 2013. In 2014, he was arguably the worst regular (offensively) in all of MLB. And you're using a 200 PA sample size as evidence that he's an average hitting SS? Why, when you have nearly 2000 to go by prior to this year? You can tell others to agree to disagree all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that Cozart isn't a good hitter. Or even average. Yes, even for his position. He's not. The numbers are there. Use something other than raw OPS that rewards him for playing half his games in probably the 2nd most hitter friendly stadium (especially for home runs) in MLB. Even using raw OPS, he's still below average... And again, there is no chance Cozart will be here in his mid 30s. You're making a below average player out to be some key piece to the future when he's entirely replaceable. Given how you've already compared him to a borderline HOF, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. There's nothing wrong with having favorite players, and if Cozart is one of yours then that's great. He's not very good however (as virtually any stat will show you) and he likely won't be here for much longer. The Reds aren't going to give a LTC to a light hitting SS, entering his 30s, when they're rebuilding and already have someone cheaper (and probably better) ready to take his place. Based on OPS, Cozart has ranked in the middle third of SS offensively three of the past four years. That feels fairly average to me. The outlier year is 2014, which I admit, was terrible. You may want to define "average" differently, and that's fine. I'm not just using his 200 PAs in 2015. I double checked my post, and yup, there it is, 4 years of data that I provided to you. And even regarding 2015, I recognized the low sample size and showed where his career numbers would have slotted in this year, even though he was on his way to performing better than his career numbers. Not sure why you think I'm not considering his PAs prior to this year. There is no evidence of that. Sure, I think it would be interesting to include ballpark factors too. But let's for a moment bring this back to the core discussion point, which is not where Cozart ranks among MLB shortstops, it's the decision the Reds may need to make between Suarez, Cozart, and BP (if Suarez doesn't end up in LF). And last I checked, they play in the same ballpark, so BP's power numbers probably won't fare any better relative to Cozart when you consider ballpark factors for him. And regarding BP, I still fail to see where anyone in this thread has put together anything close to a solid defense and reasoning for keeping him in the lineup. I'm still waiting to see any evidence that BP isn't in decline defensively and isn't potentially now less valuable than Cozart (an elite defensive SS) at this point on defense, or that his offense is so significantly good that he is still a "must have" in the lineup. There's also zero evidence that he has a future with the club, and you've already admitted that it would make sense to pull BP from the lineup before Cozart if it was possible. The argument in support of BP pretty much seems to hinge on batting average, he was great in his prime, he's being paid to much to bench, and he won't accept a trade. None of these arguments really convince me that starting BP is important to the Reds being a better team in 2017 or 2018, which is now the goal. I think I've done plenty to show that there is room for my opinion in this discussion, providing easily as much evidence and reasoning as has been provided in support of Phillips. Still, I respect your preference to play BP everyday. Maybe we should just move on? 1) Cozart's OPS vs the ML average for SSs, by year: 2012: .687/.685 (yes, right on the average) 2013: .665/.680 (below average) 2014: .568/.677 (not even close) So, in his only three full seasons, he's ranked as average, below-average, and downright putrid offensively. There are problems with using this however. Using raw OPS rewards Cozart for playing in GABP. What do you honestly think his OPS would be if he played in Petco or Safeco? You have to account for park factors, and once you do, Cozart's numbers look even worse. You're not reaching when you call Cozart "average offensively". You're simply wrong. That's why you've taken so much flak in this thread. There's not an anti-Cozart agenda; we are simply point out he's really not good (at all) offensively. 2) You have not provided four years worth of data because, umm, four years of Cozart data does not exist. He played in 11 games in 2011 and 53 in 2015. Summing those together doesn't even give you half of a season. I understand why you want to use 2015 (because it's the best offensive stretch of his career), but given his career numbers, it's highly unlikely he he was going to finish with a .770 OPS. Hell, it's unlikely he would have even finished at .700. Argue that all you like, but history is on my side. 3) Sure, let's get back to Suarez/Cozart/BP. Suarez is young, cost-controlled for several seasons, and is hitting the ball very well. There are a number of real, qualitative factors that go into why BP is going nowhere (you've ignored them throughout the thread, which is fine, but it doesn't change the fact that they're real and aren't changing anytime soon). Plus, he's hit the ball better this year (at 34) than Cozart has throughout his career. Then you have Cozart, who is about to get expensive, just turned 30, and his replacement is having a better season (half season) than he's ever had. The crux of the matter is you believe Cozart has some sort of long-term future with the Reds, and I'm sorry, but he doesn't. BP is locked into a starting position for the next two seasons, and Suarez will be sooner rather than later (if he isn't already). The Reds would be fools to give a LTC to a light-hitting SS, now 30, when they have a BETTER OPTION ready to take his place and is much cheaper. You can preach all night "well, just bench BP!" but it's simply not a realistic option. If you hoping this will happen you're going to be disappointed. As I've already mentioned, unless BP's numbers completely fall off a cliff (and they haven't), he isn't going to be benched. A small market team like the Reds paying somebody $12M to ride pine? Get real. 4) It's not about my preference to play BP everyday. You're not getting this. If it was up to me, we'd trade him tomorrow. Again, until he gives any sort of indication that he would even accept a trade, you have to assume that he won't. And considering his salary and relationship with the fans, benching him is not something that the Reds are going to entertain doing. It's not about whether or not I would. It's about whether or not the Reds would, and if you honestly think they would bench him, you really haven't been following this team for very long. 5) I'm not sure why you keep telling everybody to agree to disagree and to move on. Nobody is forcing you to respond to anything. As for me personally, I've just had a hard time understanding the Cozart love but to each his own, I guess.
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Post by scottscudder on Aug 19, 2015 23:54:53 GMT -5
1) Cozart's OPS vs the ML average for SSs, by year: 2012: .687/.685 (yes, right on the average) 2013: .665/.680 (below average) 2014: .568/.677 (not even close) So, in his only three full seasons, he's ranked as average, below-average, and downright putrid offensively. There are problems with using this however. Using raw OPS rewards Cozart for playing in GABP. What do you honestly think his OPS would be if he played in Petco or Safeco? You have to account for park factors, and once you do, Cozart's numbers look even worse. You're not reaching when you call Cozart "average offensively". You're simply wrong. That's why you've taken so much flak in this thread. There's not an anti-Cozart agenda; we are simply point out he's really not good (at all) offensively. 2) You have not provided four years worth of data because, umm, four years of Cozart data does not exist. He played in 11 games in 2011 and 53 in 2015. Summing those together doesn't even give you half of a season. I understand why you want to use 2015 (because it's the best offensive stretch of his career), but given his career numbers, it's highly unlikely he he was going to finish with a .770 OPS. Hell, it's unlikely he would have even finished at .700. Argue that all you like, but history is on my side. 3) Sure, let's get back to Suarez/Cozart/BP. Suarez is young, cost-controlled for several seasons, and is hitting the ball very well. There are a number of real, qualitative factors that go into why BP is going nowhere (you've ignored them throughout the thread, which is fine, but it doesn't change the fact that they're real and aren't changing anytime soon). Plus, he's hit the ball better this year (at 34) than Cozart has throughout his career. Then you have Cozart, who is about to get expensive, just turned 30, and his replacement is having a better season (half season) than he's ever had. The crux of the matter is you believe Cozart has some sort of long-term future with the Reds, and I'm sorry, but he doesn't. BP is locked into a starting position for the next two seasons, and Suarez will be sooner rather than later (if he isn't already). The Reds would be fools to give a LTC to a light-hitting SS, now 30, when they have a BETTER OPTION ready to take his place and is much cheaper. You can preach all night "well, just bench BP!" but it's simply not a realistic option. If you hoping this will happen you're going to be disappointed. As I've already mentioned, unless BP's numbers completely fall off a cliff (and they haven't), he isn't going to be benched. A small market team like the Reds paying somebody $12M to ride pine? Get real. 4) It's not about my preference to play BP everyday. You're not getting this. If it was up to me, we'd trade him tomorrow. Again, until he gives any sort of indication that he would even accept a trade, you have to assume that he won't. And considering his salary and relationship with the fans, benching him is not something that the Reds are going to entertain doing. It's not about whether or not I would. It's about whether or not the Reds would, and if you honestly think they would bench him, you really haven't been following this team for very long. 5) I'm not sure why you keep telling everybody to agree to disagree and to move on. Nobody is forcing you to respond to anything. As for me personally, I've just had a hard time understanding the Cozart love but to each his own, I guess. 1) You can call 2013 "below average", that's cool, but .015 pts difference is nothing. Nothing. You can also leave 2015 off the list, but those PAs do exist, and combined with 2012/13, they directionally indicate that 2014 was an aberration. This is inconvenient for you. I get it. 2) This hardly deserves a response. I quoted you data from 4 different seasons. You accused me of only looking at 200 PAs in 2015. Who was more correct? 3) The thread isn't about what will happen. The thread is about what should happen. Regardless of what BP's contract value is, and regardless of his no trade clause, what should happen is he should not start over Cozart and Suarez, given the players' relative performance levels, ages and where they are in their careers, and given where this team is headed. I'm still waiting for any kind of solid baseball based reasoning as to how starting BP aligns to the long term strategy or makes this a better team long term. Could you please provide this? Even just a shred of support? We just disagree that Cozart could potentially be on the team long term. I believe that Cozart has 5-6 more good years left and could still fit within the budget. You don't. Fine. 4) No, it IS about whether or not you would. The thread is asking what you would do, not what the Reds will do. What a boring message board this would be if it was just a discussion of what the Reds will do. This thread would be like two posts long, one with the initial question and one with: "The Reds will play Cozart at SS and BP at 2B, and Suarez will be a super utility guy". There, that's it. What a great discussion that would be. Believe me, I have absolutely no expectation that the Reds bench BP, nor have I ever stated this. Go back and read the posts. 5) I'm saying we should just move on because the discussion has become ridiculously circular. I'm not going to be convinced of your opinion, and you're not going to be convinced of mine. I don't think you're having a hard time understanding the Cozart love. I think you're having a hard time dealing with an opinion that at first glance sounds preposterous to you, and when supported by a few arguments that actually make some sense that you can't overcome, it's troubling. I had the same issue the other day when RFM proposed trading Desclafani. That sounded crazy to me. But rather than endlessly rail against it as you are doing, I considered the viewpoint and saw how from another angle it could make some sense. To each his own, I guess.
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Post by vtreds22 on Aug 20, 2015 0:21:58 GMT -5
1) Cozart's OPS vs the ML average for SSs, by year: 2012: .687/.685 (yes, right on the average) 2013: .665/.680 (below average) 2014: .568/.677 (not even close) So, in his only three full seasons, he's ranked as average, below-average, and downright putrid offensively. There are problems with using this however. Using raw OPS rewards Cozart for playing in GABP. What do you honestly think his OPS would be if he played in Petco or Safeco? You have to account for park factors, and once you do, Cozart's numbers look even worse. You're not reaching when you call Cozart "average offensively". You're simply wrong. That's why you've taken so much flak in this thread. There's not an anti-Cozart agenda; we are simply point out he's really not good (at all) offensively. 2) You have not provided four years worth of data because, umm, four years of Cozart data does not exist. He played in 11 games in 2011 and 53 in 2015. Summing those together doesn't even give you half of a season. I understand why you want to use 2015 (because it's the best offensive stretch of his career), but given his career numbers, it's highly unlikely he he was going to finish with a .770 OPS. Hell, it's unlikely he would have even finished at .700. Argue that all you like, but history is on my side. 3) Sure, let's get back to Suarez/Cozart/BP. Suarez is young, cost-controlled for several seasons, and is hitting the ball very well. There are a number of real, qualitative factors that go into why BP is going nowhere (you've ignored them throughout the thread, which is fine, but it doesn't change the fact that they're real and aren't changing anytime soon). Plus, he's hit the ball better this year (at 34) than Cozart has throughout his career. Then you have Cozart, who is about to get expensive, just turned 30, and his replacement is having a better season (half season) than he's ever had. The crux of the matter is you believe Cozart has some sort of long-term future with the Reds, and I'm sorry, but he doesn't. BP is locked into a starting position for the next two seasons, and Suarez will be sooner rather than later (if he isn't already). The Reds would be fools to give a LTC to a light-hitting SS, now 30, when they have a BETTER OPTION ready to take his place and is much cheaper. You can preach all night "well, just bench BP!" but it's simply not a realistic option. If you hoping this will happen you're going to be disappointed. As I've already mentioned, unless BP's numbers completely fall off a cliff (and they haven't), he isn't going to be benched. A small market team like the Reds paying somebody $12M to ride pine? Get real. 4) It's not about my preference to play BP everyday. You're not getting this. If it was up to me, we'd trade him tomorrow. Again, until he gives any sort of indication that he would even accept a trade, you have to assume that he won't. And considering his salary and relationship with the fans, benching him is not something that the Reds are going to entertain doing. It's not about whether or not I would. It's about whether or not the Reds would, and if you honestly think they would bench him, you really haven't been following this team for very long. 5) I'm not sure why you keep telling everybody to agree to disagree and to move on. Nobody is forcing you to respond to anything. As for me personally, I've just had a hard time understanding the Cozart love but to each his own, I guess. 1) You can call 2013 "below average", that's cool, but .015 pts difference is nothing. Nothing. You can also leave 2015 off the list, but those PAs do exist, and combined with 2012/13, they directionally indicate that 2014 was an aberration. This is inconvenient for you. I get it. 2) This hardly deserves a response. I quoted you data from 4 different seasons. You accused me of only looking at 200 PAs in 2015. Who was more correct? 3) The thread isn't about what will happen. The thread is about what should happen. Regardless of what BP's contract value is, and regardless of his no trade clause, what should happen is he should not start over Cozart and Suarez, given the players' relative performance levels, ages and where they are in their careers, and given where this team is headed. I'm still waiting for any kind of solid baseball based reasoning as to how starting BP aligns to the long term strategy or makes this a better team long term. Could you please provide this? Even just a shred of support? We just disagree that Cozart could potentially be on the team long term. I believe that Cozart has 5-6 more good years left and could still fit within the budget. You don't. Fine. 4) No, it IS about whether or not you would. The thread is asking what you would do, not what the Reds will do. What a boring message board this would be if it was just a discussion of what the Reds will do. This thread would be like two posts long, one with the initial question and one with: "The Reds will play Cozart at SS and BP at 2B, and Suarez will be a super utility guy". There, that's it. What a great discussion that would be. Believe me, I have absolutely no expectation that the Reds bench BP, nor have I ever stated this. Go back and read the posts. 5) I'm saying we should just move on because the discussion has become ridiculously circular. I'm not going to be convinced of your opinion, and you're not going to be convinced of mine. I don't think you're having a hard time understanding the Cozart love. I think you're having a hard time dealing with an opinion that at first glance sounds preposterous to you, and when supported by a few arguments that actually make some sense that you can't overcome, it's troubling. I had the same issue the other day when RFM proposed trading Desclafani. That sounded crazy to me. But rather than endlessly rail against it as you are doing, I considered the viewpoint and saw how from another angle it could make some sense. To each his own, I guess. 1) It's a .015 difference in OPS when he's already being rewarded for playing in GABP. There are better stats out there than OPS (stats that adjust for park factors). I'll be glad to post them if you'd like; they only make him look worse. How big of a hit does his OPS take if he plays in a pitcher's park? Or even a neutral park? That's the problem with using non park-adjusted numbers when analyzing players. Account for the parks, and again, his mediocre numbers are worse. You're not disputing that, are you? You can call 2014 an aberration all you like, but it's a full year's worth of data. I'm not the one using 1/3 of a season, or 200 plate appearances, to try to validate my claim. That would be too convenient. Like I said, try using a stat that doesn't favor him for playing in a bandbox and see what results you get. It's not pretty. 2) FFS, he hasn't played four full seasons. You can say four years worth of data all you like, but how in the blue hell is it four years worth of data if he's only played 3.5 seasons? You might as well say five years of data and include those 11 games he played in in 2011. FFS, you're arguing semantics. Cozart has played roughly 3 and 1/3 seasons, not four. 3) What should happen? If it was up to me, neither Cozart nor BP would be in a Reds uniform next season. I live in reality though, and realize that BP's contract and NTC means he's in Cincinnati for two more seasons. And until his numbers fall off a cliff, there's no point in benching him. As I've pointed out numerous times (which you've ignored), BP's numbers at age 34 are still better than Cozart's career numbers, so it's not like we're actually upgrading by playing Cozart over BP. And no, I don't entertain the idea of moving Suarez off the position you're trying to teach him just to get freaking Cozart in the lineup. So yeah, if you're asking me what I think should happen... Cozart isn't offered arbitration, BP is somehow talked into waving his NTC, and I pick up someone to fill in at 2B for a year or two and hope Blandino pans out. Or, an even better plan, I think big Bob should pony up and add $75M to next year's payroll so we can actually try to win. That's what should happen. Too bad should and reality don't really mix here. 4) See above. 5) I'm an open-minded person; you're the one who is saying you won't change your mind. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I could not possibly agree less with the idea that we need to find a way to keep Cozart long-term, and you're in the extreme minority of Reds fans who thinks we should. I mean FFS, you have compared a good glove/mediocre bat SS to a borderline HOF. If that isn't irrational love for a player, I don't know what is. His replacement is out-performing him, he's 30, and he's getting expensive. There is absolutely no purpose to keeping him around. It's a shame he got hurt. I was hoping the Reds would be able to ride his career year into a semi-useful prospect or two.
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Post by psuhistory on Aug 20, 2015 6:38:36 GMT -5
If that isn't irrational love for a player, I don't know what is. Technically, wanting to destroy Zach Cozart rather than to see someone else have him would be more irrational...
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Post by yorak on Aug 20, 2015 8:48:06 GMT -5
Suarez is raking, pretty much has Pipped Cozart at this point.
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Post by kinsm on Aug 20, 2015 9:00:18 GMT -5
This thread is ridiculous.
Suarez should be the 2016 opening day SS, barring BP waiving his no trade clause, Suarez being injured, or a trade for an even better SS.
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Post by bphillips4gg on Aug 20, 2015 9:27:45 GMT -5
OPS 2012-2014: Phillips - .750, .706, .678 Cozart - .687, .665, .568
Find another straw to grasp at, because that argument just collapsed on itself.
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Post by redsfanman on Aug 20, 2015 10:59:53 GMT -5
This thread is ridiculous. Suarez should be the 2016 opening day SS, barring BP waiving his no trade clause, Suarez being injured, or a trade for an even better SS. Agreed. Especially with the first part.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2015 13:04:15 GMT -5
Well, one more time... until you show me who the Reds have on the opening day roster to put in LF that is superior to Cozart offensively, I have to say Cozart SS, Suarez LF. I think that is the way to go until they have a LF solution.
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Post by bphillips4gg on Aug 20, 2015 13:39:27 GMT -5
Well, one more time... until you show me who the Reds have on the opening day roster to put in LF that is superior to Cozart offensively, I have to say Cozart SS, Suarez LF. I think that is the way to go until they have a LF solution. So you would have the Reds, in what most would agree is a lost season next year, move the SS of the future, who needs to improve his infield defense, to the outfield to make room for a terrible SS who'll be 31 years old and out of team control after the season? FFS.
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Post by redsfanman on Aug 20, 2015 14:31:09 GMT -5
Well, one more time... until you show me who the Reds have on the opening day roster to put in LF that is superior to Cozart offensively, I have to say Cozart SS, Suarez LF. I think that is the way to go until they have a LF solution. They have something like 7 months left to address LF. LF, of course, being short for 'that position Jesse Winker will play eventually'. Suarez to LF is, at best, a long-shot contingency plan for there being zero transactions over the next 7 months. And it's even more unrealistic than the long shot Mesoraco-to-LF idea. The day Suarez moves to the OF he also moves from a welcome surprise to an unpopular light hitter, due to higher expectations at that position. Suarez's bat works well at SS, but LF... not so much.
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