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Post by scotly50 on Aug 17, 2015 5:34:50 GMT -5
For what it's worth, in a postgame interview the other night, I saw Price say that Suarez will be ready to play multiple positions once Cozart is back. So assuming that nobody gets traded and the Price is still in charge, it sounds like the current plan is to make Suarez a super utility guy. Keep Suarez where he is and let Price move !
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devils
Ted Kluszewski
Posts: 769
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Post by devils on Aug 17, 2015 17:03:43 GMT -5
Maybe they can put Suarez in LF for a year. I just don't see him being a bench player, and I can't see any other position in the infield that Suarez could battle for as Votto, Phillips, Frazier are the 3 bases, and all that is even debatable is SS. Mez is suppose to be the lf next year right??
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Post by crashdavissports on Aug 18, 2015 12:56:57 GMT -5
Maybe they can put Suarez in LF for a year. I just don't see him being a bench player, and I can't see any other position in the infield that Suarez could battle for as Votto, Phillips, Frazier are the 3 bases, and all that is even debatable is SS. Mez is suppose to be the lf next year right?? They are going to put Mesoraco at C. He just got a 4 year deal, and his value right now is at catcher. He hasn't been great in the limited time they tried him in LF in the minors either. I fully expect Mesoraco to remain at catcher for the next several years unless another hip injury occurs and then they will consider moving him more seriously.
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Post by crashdavissports on Aug 18, 2015 12:58:34 GMT -5
So stick Suarez in LF, let Cozart have his SS job until he hits himself out of a starting job by the middle of May, then just put Suarez back in at SS. The easiest play here is just let Cozart prove to everyone why he is not a starting SS over Suarez like he has his first few years with his inconsistencies.
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Post by scottscudder on Aug 18, 2015 18:28:31 GMT -5
So stick Suarez in LF, let Cozart have his SS job until he hits himself out of a starting job by the middle of May, then just put Suarez back in at SS. The easiest play here is just let Cozart prove to everyone why he is not a starting SS over Suarez like he has his first few years with his inconsistencies. Yes, do this, remove the best defensive SS from the lineup, and keep Phillips at 2B. Phillips, whose bat and glove are both in decline, and has no future with club. Why? Because he's a fan favorite and the Reds spent too much to bench him!
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Post by Brutus23 on Aug 18, 2015 18:31:24 GMT -5
"They're gonna have to find a place for this kid to play next year...everyday." - Cowboy on WLW
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Post by bphillips4gg on Aug 18, 2015 18:40:04 GMT -5
So stick Suarez in LF, let Cozart have his SS job until he hits himself out of a starting job by the middle of May, then just put Suarez back in at SS. The easiest play here is just let Cozart prove to everyone why he is not a starting SS over Suarez like he has his first few years with his inconsistencies. Yes, do this, remove the best defensive SS from the lineup, and keep Phillips at 2B. Phillips, whose bat and glove are both in decline, and has no future with club. Why? Because he's a fan favorite and the Reds spent too much to bench him! Why? Because the bat you're suggesting is "in decline" is hitting .285-.290 this year, his defense is still great, not even close to a liability. And finally, yes. They're paying him too much to bench him, he likely won't accept a trade anywhere except Atlanta (who wouldn't be interested) and they're certainly paying him too much to bench him in favor of a player that's got a .245 career batting average and a .284 career OBP. You wanted to know why, I just told you. Now stop asking stupid boinking questions and ignoring important things like the facts when you try to make a point.
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Post by bphillips4gg on Aug 18, 2015 18:47:51 GMT -5
"They're gonna have to find a place for this kid to play next year...everyday." - Cowboy on WLW That's a pretty easy assessment to make. The kid can boinking rake. It's hard to quantify how fortunate it is that the Reds have been able to realize this kid's potential given the fact they know they need hitting. How relieving is it to think that they've already got a kid that can hit like that in their system already?
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Post by scottscudder on Aug 18, 2015 19:48:14 GMT -5
Yes, do this, remove the best defensive SS from the lineup, and keep Phillips at 2B. Phillips, whose bat and glove are both in decline, and has no future with club. Why? Because he's a fan favorite and the Reds spent too much to bench him! Why? Because the bat you're suggesting is "in decline" is hitting .285-.290 this year, his defense is still great, not even close to a liability. And finally, yes. They're paying him too much to bench him, he likely won't accept a trade anywhere except Atlanta (who wouldn't be interested) and they're certainly paying him too much to bench him in favor of a player that's got a .245 career batting average and a .284 career OBP. You wanted to know why, I just told you. Now stop asking stupid boinking questions and ignoring important things like the facts when you try to make a point. I know the facts. Cozart doesn't hit for average. He just doesn't. He's a bottom of the order hitter (just like BP). He's about average offensively for shortstops (just like BP is for 2B). But he does have some power. And while BP has a better average, he has lost his power. Incredibly, he still trails Cozart in HRs this season in more than twice as many at bats. If you're going to build your case for BP on an old stat like batting avg., that's cool. But I'll take Cozart's superior defense, superior power, and superior fit with the overall strategy for the club. Let's just agree to disagree.
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Post by vtreds22 on Aug 18, 2015 21:44:46 GMT -5
Why? Because the bat you're suggesting is "in decline" is hitting .285-.290 this year, his defense is still great, not even close to a liability. And finally, yes. They're paying him too much to bench him, he likely won't accept a trade anywhere except Atlanta (who wouldn't be interested) and they're certainly paying him too much to bench him in favor of a player that's got a .245 career batting average and a .284 career OBP. You wanted to know why, I just told you. Now stop asking stupid boinking questions and ignoring important things like the facts when you try to make a point. I know the facts. Cozart doesn't hit for average. He just doesn't. He's a bottom of the order hitter (just like BP). He's about average offensively for shortstops (just like BP is for 2B). But he does have some power. And while BP has a better average, he has lost his power. Incredibly, he still trails Cozart in HRs this season in more than twice as many at bats. If you're going to build your case for BP on an old stat like batting avg., that's cool. But I'll take Cozart's superior defense, superior power, and superior fit with the overall strategy for the club. Let's just agree to disagree. Cozart is not average offensively for shortstops. In his last three full seasons, he's posted an OPS+ of 82, 82, and 60. The 82s are below average and the 60 is putrid. He had an OPS+ of 108 in a 214 plate appearance sample size this season prior to getting hurt; we'll never know where he would have finished over a full season, but history certainly wasn't on his side. For what it's worth, BP's OPS+ has been below 90 twice in his career (48 in his rookie season in 2003 with the Indians, and 88 in 2006, his first year with the Reds). Even at age 34, he's still giving you an OPS+ of 92; that certainly isn't great, but it's not far from the ML average for 2B. I don't know why you're so infatuated with Cozart (I'm beginning to think you're relatives), but like BP, he doesn't have a long-term fit with this club either. Cozart is about to hit arbitration and just turned 30 years old; you're off your rocker if you think that the Reds are going to give him a long-term contract. BP will be gone by 2018, and it's highly likely that Cozart will be too. Suarez fits into the Reds long-term plans, especially if he continues to hit. Neither BP nor Cozart do.
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Post by bphillips4gg on Aug 18, 2015 21:46:41 GMT -5
Why? Because the bat you're suggesting is "in decline" is hitting .285-.290 this year, his defense is still great, not even close to a liability. And finally, yes. They're paying him too much to bench him, he likely won't accept a trade anywhere except Atlanta (who wouldn't be interested) and they're certainly paying him too much to bench him in favor of a player that's got a .245 career batting average and a .284 career OBP. You wanted to know why, I just told you. Now stop asking stupid boinking questions and ignoring important things like the facts when you try to make a point. I know the facts. Cozart doesn't hit for average. He just doesn't. He's a bottom of the order hitter (just like BP). He's about average offensively for shortstops (just like BP is for 2B). But he does have some power. And while BP has a better average, he has lost his power. Incredibly, he still trails Cozart in HRs this season in more than twice as many at bats. If you're going to build your case for BP on an old stat like batting avg., that's cool. But I'll take Cozart's superior defense, superior power, and superior fit with the overall strategy for the club. Let's just agree to disagree. Career .375 slugging, good for a whopping .659 OPS. And you can pretend Cozart is whatever you want. The reality is he is going to be 30 next year and in the last year of team control. You can wish away the money already owed to Phillips all you want, but it's not going away. Cozart would only cost them more money to keep beyond next year. Light-hitting, good defensive shortstops are a dime a dozen. And in what worked is being average an "old stat". Was it a convenient oversight that you omitted the fact that his OBP is lower than Billy Hamilton's, our just convenient for your argument? One good half season after 3 years of below average performance is not enough to change the terrible production that have been the norm. You're using selective memory for both players, basing your opinion on the best 229 plate appearances of Cozart's career and the worst season on BP's, the latter during a season in which BP was playing with one arm. Phillips is probably going to regress, Cozart may get better, but it's not going to matter because by the time the Reds are free of BP's salary Cozart will be 33 years old himself. It's pointless to discuss because Phillips isn't going anywhere and he's shown himself to be a batter, more versatile hitter on a team that needs a guy on base 40 extra times per season than they need 6-10 more homers in a season. If you're going to try to argue on the basis of new age stats, you can't then devalue the stat that the whole sabermetric argument is predicated on.
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Post by redsfanman on Aug 18, 2015 23:02:46 GMT -5
"They're gonna have to find a place for this kid to play next year...everyday." - Cowboy on WLW That's a pretty easy assessment to make. The kid can boinking rake. It's hard to quantify how fortunate it is that the Reds have been able to realize this kid's potential given the fact they know they need hitting. How relieving is it to think that they've already got a kid that can hit like that in their system already? I sure won't go that far, you make Suarez sound like some sorta special hitter who other players should model themselves after. As much as I like Suarez, and as good as he's been, much of his success is BABIP driven, with a .354 BABIP. He's only walked 4.6% of the time, or 10 times this year, while striking out 21.8% of the time. This season he's been lucky at the plate, both overall and for getting big hits at key times. I think Suarez has been a good pickup, and a steal for Alfredo Simon, but in the big picture Suarez seems to be a pretty average player. Calling him slightly above average may be pushing it. Lots of teams have lots of average players. It's not like the Reds had some problem that's now solved by Suarez, or that he's some exceptional hitter.
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Post by scottscudder on Aug 19, 2015 0:03:02 GMT -5
I'm not ignoring OBP. I know it's not Cozart's strength. I admitted that he is not a top of the order hitter. I generally look at OPS, which considers both OBP and slugging. Here are Cozart's numbers the past few years.
Among shortstops with at least 400 ABs: Cozart 2012 OPS: .687 (ranks 11th out of 20 SS) Cozart 2013 OPS: .665 (ranks 16th out of 23 SS) Cozart 2014 OPS: .568 (ranks 24th out of 24 SS, yes, he was terrible last year)
Among shortstops with at least 200 ABs: Cozart 2015 OPS: .769 (ranks 6th out of 34 SS)
Cozart's career avg .659 OPS would rank him 12th out 19 SS in 2015
So, Cozart was fairly middle of the pack in 2012 and 2013, terrible in 2014, and well above average in 2015. To me, this all nets out to Cozart being a fairly average SS offensively.
OPS+ is a metric that compares Cozart to the rest of the league. I admit he is a below average offensive player against the rest of MLB (as are most SS). My claim is that he is fairly average for an MLB SS.
Cozart will be 32, not 33 when BP's contract ends. He has 5-6 good seasons left in him. I think it's entirely possible, if Blandino doesn't pan out, that Cozart could be around for awhile.
This is going nowhere. Let's agree to disagree.
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Post by vtreds22 on Aug 19, 2015 0:41:21 GMT -5
I'm not ignoring OBP. I know it's not Cozart's strength. I admitted that he is not a top of the order hitter. I generally look at OPS, which considers both OBP and slugging. Here are Cozart's numbers the past few years. Among shortstops with at least 400 ABs: Cozart 2012 OPS: .687 (ranks 11th out of 20 SS) Cozart 2013 OPS: .665 (ranks 16th out of 23 SS) Cozart 2014 OPS: .568 (ranks 24th out of 24 SS, yes, he was terrible last year) Among shortstops with at least 200 ABs: Cozart 2015 OPS: .769 (ranks 6th out of 34 SS) Cozart's career avg .659 OPS would rank him 12th out 19 SS in 2015 So, Cozart was fairly middle of the pack in 2012 and 2013, terrible in 2014, and well above average in 2015. To me, this all nets out to Cozart being a fairly average SS offensively. OPS+ is a metric that compares Cozart to the rest of the league. I admit he is a below average offensive player against the rest of MLB (as are most SS). My claim is that he is fairly average for an MLB SS. Cozart will be 32, not 33 when BP's contract ends. He has 5-6 good seasons left in him. I think it's entirely possible, if Blandino doesn't pan out, that Cozart could be around for awhile. This is going nowhere. Let's agree to disagree. You can use virtually any statistic that you want (especially the ones that adjust for park factors, since Cozart plays in a bandbox) and they will all tell you that Cozart is not a good offensive baseball player. He was below average (even for his position) in 2012 and 2013. In 2014, he was arguably the worst regular (offensively) in all of MLB. And you're using a 200 PA sample size as evidence that he's an average hitting SS? Why, when you have nearly 2000 to go by prior to this year? You can tell others to agree to disagree all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that Cozart isn't a good hitter. Or even average. Yes, even for his position. He's not. The numbers are there. Use something other than raw OPS that rewards him for playing half his games in probably the 2nd most hitter friendly stadium (especially for home runs) in MLB. Even using raw OPS, he's still below average... And again, there is no chance Cozart will be here in his mid 30s. You're making a below average player out to be some key piece to the future when he's entirely replaceable. Given how you've already compared him to a borderline HOF, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. There's nothing wrong with having favorite players, and if Cozart is one of yours then that's great. He's not very good however (as virtually any stat will show you) and he likely won't be here for much longer. The Reds aren't going to give a LTC to a light hitting SS, entering his 30s, when they're rebuilding and already have someone cheaper (and probably better) ready to take his place.
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Post by crashdavissports on Aug 19, 2015 15:00:36 GMT -5
I don't know what you have such a love for Cozart for and such a hate for Phillips.
Does Phillips hit as many home runs anymore? No. Does Cozart hit more home runs? Yes. Who cares if he can only make contact at half the rate of Phillips?
Phillips is batting .280'ish, with 17 SB, still scoring runs, driving runs in, is versatile, and while he may have lost a little range, his glove is still light years ahead of 95% of all players in all of major league baseball. Phillips in his prime may have been the best defensive second baseman in the history of the game.
If you can honestly tell me that Cozart is still the best option over Phillips while Cozart is in a 0-26 slump, his batting average is teetering around mendoza, and his OBP is actually less than Phillips batting average...then I guess you can call yourself a true fan of that player. Because there is no one that would take Cozart over Phillips at their current ages if salary was equal.
Cozart has been such a disappointment from the word go, that there is no where to go for him but up. But just because he was having a little better year does not make him the next great SS. I like Cozart's power and defense, but outside those two attributes he is almost worthless on the diamond.
We do not need a defensive first SS when the current option on the team is not terrible at defense and is capable of being the perfect #2 hitter that we have been searching for. The second you take Cozart out of the bottom of the lineup, he looks like crap. How many times have we tried to insert Cozart into the leadoff or #2 hole in the lineup as he got hot? Then of those times how many times did he go into the tank immediately following that promotion? EVERY SINGLE TIME! His defense is not what this team needs when we struggle offensively to score runs. We need a hitter in as many slots of our lineup as we can get without completely sacrificing defense. We have probably the best defensive CF in all of baseball. Bruce is pretty dang good in RF. Phillips is still gold glove caliber. Votto has won a gold glove before. Frazier was looking like he could be a gold glover at one point. We have some good defense, we don't need a defensive only SS to be in our lineup every day.
Now, I didn't say there wasn't a place for him on this team, I just don't see it as a starter. I like his defense for later in games at 3B, SS. I like his power off the bench. I see him as a good filler if Phillips is hurt, or Suarez, or even for that matter Frazier. He has a valuable role on this team still, just not as a starter unless it is due to injury.
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