Reds' Insanity

[Lark11]

Boy, I really have to question this move.

Say what you will about Krivsky, but what has he done this year to deserve the ax? To me, this is a baffling move. Truly baffling. If you were going to make this move, why not make it over the offseason, when Jocketty could have done something to reshape this team?

I don't agree with some of what Krivsky has done during his time here, but that would be true of any GM who isn't me. That's the price I pay for having strong, occasionally off the wall opinions.

"The Trade" was and will continue to be beyond terrible. I didn't like the Hamilton trade and he had an alarming habit of giving out multiyear deals or just large deals to mediocre veterans (Stanton, Patterson, Castro).

Still, Krivsky was leaps and bounds better than O'Brien, who couldn't even pull the trigger on our 4 outfielder fiasco. Krivsky brought in Hamilton and Phillips in very shrewd moves. He locked Harang into an extension and brought in Scott Hatteberg.

An alarming aspect of the GM switch is that Jocketty fell out of favor in St. Louis because he couldn't get along with Jeff Luhnow, Cardinal V.P. of scouting and player development, who is one of the new wave of baseball minds who embraces statistical analysis. The Cards brought in Mozeliak and embraced the new thinking and we went with the old school guy. I'm not entirely sure we come ahead in that deal.

As for Jocketty, I'm not entirely sure what he has done in St.Louis that is so great. He seems to excel at acquiring expensive veteran talent (Rolen from the Phils, Edmonds from the Halos, McGwire from the A's, etc), which is the exact opposite direction from where we need to go. He got very lucky with Albert Pujols. Maybe he personally saw something in Albert, but if he really knew what he had, he wouldn't have waited until round 13 to draft him.

I will give him credit for giving David Eckstein a legitimate shot. Conventional wisdom would never have given Eckstein an MLB job, but he got one and it worked.

It just seems like a move that smacks of desperation, when there is really no need to be desperate. Unlike firing a manager, firing a GM is unlikely to spur the team on to better performance. Just the change itself can be enough to change the environment and performance (i.e. Pete MacKanin). For me, it seems like this would not only lack a positive impact, but also carry with it a negative impact.

Changing an entire GM regime over will inevitably bring about a period of adjustment. People have to get used to a new dynamic and there will inevitably be a reshuffling of employees or at least employment responsibilities.

Overall, this just seems like more instability for an organization that has suffered from far too much of it lately. In addition, it's difficult to see what Jocketty brings to the table that Krivsky lacked.

However, it does raise some interesting questions. How much of the moves of last offseason were Krivsky's doing? I've heard Cast pushed for Dusty and maybe C-Pat wasn't Krivsky either. At some point, it's possible that Krivsky lost his independence and authority to act on behalf of the club. Just how heavy handed was Cast over the past few months?

This seems like change for nothing more than change's sake. This organization is beyond past the point at which we need to commit to a plan and stick to it. This constant reshuffling of the deck does nothing to help this organization succeed. Consistency and continuity are what drives success.

It reminds of the old saying: Do SOMETHING, even if it's wrong. Well, the Reds need to stick with a plan, even if it's wrong. By constantly changing course, we never even get to find out if something is right or wrong.

[blee2525]

Obviously, I'm not the world's biggest Krivsky fan. The Trade was just the tip of the iceberg for me, and indicative of larger problems in his approach. The single biggest issue for me was the fact that he often lost sight of the market in single-minded pursuits to fix perceived problems. I think that his tendency to "put the blinders on" in these situations is what drove Johnny Almaraz away, which is one of the worst developments for the franchise in his tenure. Obviously, this tendency was the driving force behind The Trade. Similarly, giving extra years to Cormier, Weathers and Stanton when, in at least two of those situations, he was the only person bidding. $3mil for Corey Patterson. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

That said, he obviously had an eye for Major League talent. Grabbing Phillips, Keppinger, Hamilton, and Burton for essentially nothing were all fantastic moves, and obviously put the franchise in a better position than it would be otherwise.

However, those things are not mutually exclusive. For a team like the Reds to build a franchise to contend year-in-year-out, they need a guy who can accurately gauge the market and find undervalued talent. Unfortunately, I don't know that Jocketty is that guy. He seems to have a similar annoying affinity for mediocre veteran presence, has a history of ill-advised extensions, and I'm not sure that he has Krivsky's ability to find diamonds in the rough. I don't mind Krivsky getting the axe, but this seems like a lateral move at best.

If we were looking to replace him with a Logan White (Dodgers' scouting director, best in the business), a Chris Antonetti (Indians' Assistant GM), or even take a chance on Johnny Almaraz, I'd be absolutely on board. I want to find the next John Schuerholz, not a 70-year-old retread from a division rival.

[redsfanntheville]

Apr 23, 2008 15:59:57 GMT -5 Lark11 said:

Boy, I really have to question this move.

Say what you will about Krivsky, but what has he done this year to deserve the ax? To me, this is a baffling move. Truly baffling. If you were going to make this move, why not make it over the offseason, when Jocketty could have done something to reshape this team?

I don't agree with some of what Krivsky has done during his time here, but that would be true of any GM who isn't me. That's the price I pay for having strong, occasionally off the wall opinions.

"The Trade" was and will continue to be beyond terrible. I didn't like the Hamilton trade and he had an alarming habit of giving out multiyear deals or just large deals to mediocre veterans (Stanton, Patterson, Castro).

Still, Krivsky was leaps and bounds better than O'Brien, who couldn't even pull the trigger on our 4 outfielder fiasco. Krivsky brought in Hamilton and Phillips in very shrewd moves. He locked Harang into an extension and brought in Scott Hatteberg.

An alarming aspect of the GM switch is that Jocketty fell out of favor in St. Louis because he couldn't get along with Jeff Luhnow, Cardinal V.P. of scouting and player development, who is one of the new wave of baseball minds who embraces statistical analysis. The Cards brought in Mozeliak and embraced the new thinking and we went with the old school guy. I'm not entirely sure we come ahead in that deal.

As for Jocketty, I'm not entirely sure what he has done in St.Louis that is so great. He seems to excel at acquiring expensive veteran talent (Rolen from the Phils, Edmonds from the Halos, McGwire from the A's, etc), which is the exact opposite direction from where we need to go. He got very lucky with Albert Pujols. Maybe he personally saw something in Albert, but if he really knew what he had, he wouldn't have waited until round 13 to draft him.

I will give him credit for giving David Eckstein a legitimate shot. Conventional wisdom would never have given Eckstein an MLB job, but he got one and it worked.

It just seems like a move that smacks of desperation, when there is really no need to be desperate. Unlike firing a manager, firing a GM is unlikely to spur the team on to better performance. Just the change itself can be enough to change the environment and performance (i.e. Pete MacKanin). For me, it seems like this would not only lack a positive impact, but also carry with it a negative impact.

Changing an entire GM regime over will inevitably bring about a period of adjustment. People have to get used to a new dynamic and there will inevitably be a reshuffling of employees or at least employment responsibilities.

Overall, this just seems like more instability for an organization that has suffered from far too much of it lately. In addition, it's difficult to see what Jocketty brings to the table that Krivsky lacked.

However, it does raise some interesting questions. How much of the moves of last offseason were Krivsky's doing? I've heard Cast pushed for Dusty and maybe C-Pat wasn't Krivsky either. At some point, it's possible that Krivsky lost his independence and authority to act on behalf of the club. Just how heavy handed was Cast over the past few months?

This seems like change for nothing more than change's sake. This organization is beyond past the point at which we need to commit to a plan and stick to it. This constant reshuffling of the deck does nothing to help this organization succeed. Consistency and continuity are what drives success.

It reminds of the old saying: Do SOMETHING, even if it's wrong. Well, the Reds need to stick with a plan, even if it's wrong. By constantly changing course, we never even get to find out if something is right or wrong.

I have to agree, I think Kriv's got a bad wrap around here, and really did work his tale off to try and get thing turned around. This unforntunely reaps of the good ole boy network at its finest. Not sure I like it, like the other poster said if a up and coming GM was heading our way or something and with a plan of attack ready to go with plenty of energy. Walt seems to be on the back end of his GM days not sure if this is the spark plug we need.

My thoughts for a spark plug envolve pissing alot of people off here but are clearly the main problems on the team. #1 is the owners sweetheart who soundsl ike he will get his extension now, he to me exemplifies the teams flat, uncompetitive, careless type of game we are watching. After our LF is sent packing instead of getting praised by the owner time in and time out, next we clean up this pitching (Fogg, Coffey, and maybe Arroyo now) need reevaluated. Then some players will be repositioned like EE into the outfield and Bruce called up to go through the motions this year. Towards end of June or July my favorite player Griff has to let the dream go and get sent to a contender, maybe packaged with Hatty if he is still here, for some legit minor leaguers (catcher, LHSP, right handed hitting slugger)

Back to Krivsky, I actually think many of these things were probably beginning to be in the works, example Dunn not getting his extension, and maybe that is why he was let go. I hope Wayne takes a deep breath and lands on his feet.....and fellow Reds fans, Theo Epstein aint' walkin through that door so we could be picking our owners sidekick apart here shortly even more than some did to Krivs.

[walstib]

"The Trade" ... He seems to excel at acquiring expensive veteran talent (Rolen from the Phils, Edmonds from the Halos, McGwire from the A's, etc), which is the exact opposite direction from where we need to go. [/quote]

I think that is exactly what this club needs, some talented veterans in their late 20's. That was what Rolen, Mac and Edmunds were when Jock acquired them.

[dukecrunchybagel]

I have no problem at all with the timing of this move. I did not want Krivsky managing the fire sale; he'd have acquired a bunch of good players with no hint of a strategy of what he was actually acquiring and then churn those players for other players.

And lack of strategy has been Krivsky's weakness, one that is basicaly intolerable in a GM. Maybe his curse was getting so rooked by JB in the trade - he became gun shy. Kriv started to remake the team, and then lost the balls to follow it through. In that regard, O'Brien was even superior to Krivsky; O'Brien had a strategy -- rebuild the team through smart drafting. Obie-wan's problem was his lack of ability to judge talent above the AA level and his utter inability to make any sort of deal whatever (I believe Kriv had made more deals in his first four months than Obie did in his entire tenure).

Still, ultimately, how much more of Wayne could we afford? His winter was horrible -- signed CPatt, Fogg, drafted Valenzulea and sent him back, claimed Capellan on waivers and sent him back, extended Hatty, overpaid for Cordero, and didn't bring back Cantu. I'm holding my breath on Affeldt and on Volquez. Better to bite the bullet with six weeks before the draft, get Walt and the scouts on the same page, and ultimately give Walt the tools he needs to shake up the team after the ASB.

[psuhistory]

I find it hard to evaluate this decision, despite all the interesting discussion of it. I'm not sentimental about Krivsky, so I'm like the majority here in not having any strong emotional reaction to his firing. But I don't have any specific idea of what Jocketty has been hired to do. This make it difficult to do much besides wait. Has anyone picked up anything specific, apart from the always interesting reading of the tea leaves, concerning a new plan?

[dukecrunchybagel]

I haven't discerned a thing yet. I wonder if it is a fundamental difference between where Kriv thought the team is/was headed versus Jocketty's view of the same, or perhaps it is just Farmer Bob's indignation finally erupting.

[blee2525]

Apr 23, 2008 20:49:32 GMT -5 redsfanntheville said:

My thoughts for a spark plug envolve pissing alot of people off here but are clearly the main problems on the team. #1 is the owners sweetheart who soundsl ike he will get his extension now, he to me exemplifies the teams flat, uncompetitive, careless type of game we are watching. After our LF is sent packing instead of getting praised by the owner time in and time out, next we clean up this pitching (Fogg, Coffey, and maybe Arroyo now) need reevaluated. Then some players will be repositioned like EE into the outfield and Bruce called up to go through the motions this year. Towards end of June or July my favorite player Griff has to let the dream go and get sent to a contender, maybe packaged with Hatty if he is still here, for some legit minor leaguers (catcher, LHSP, right handed hitting slugger)

So, wait a minute. You're on record as saying that the main problem with this club the past few seasons is the #1 run producer on an offense that's typically in the top half of the NL in runs scored? You can't possibly believe that. Any chance the #1 problem with the club has been the constant barrage of replacement-level pitching we've been running out there? Jimmy Anderson, Jimmy Haynes, Paul Wilson, Joe Mays, Dave Williams. Remember those guys? And you're blaming Dunn?

The owner may be praising him, but he's the only one. The announcers hate him, columnists rip him unfairly, and fans like you can't stand him. He takes more abuse than any other good player in baseball. It's so bad that other team's fans notice, and wonder how our fans can hate our best hitter

I absolutely cannot believe that you rip Dunn for a lack of effort, commitment, etc., while telling me that Griffey is your favorite player. Dunn's the guy that shows up, plays every inning of every game, plays with a broken hand and a knee that needs surgery, and gets mad when somebody else brings it up. He took Bruce and Votto under his wing this offseason, set up team-building events during Spring Training, and is regarded as a great guy by everybody who covers the Reds. Griffey takes days off, resisted the move to RF when it would clearly benefit the team (remember, Dunn willingly moved to 1B before the '06 season, and moved back after they signed Hatteberg), and resists batting anywhere other than 3rd.

Your anger is misplaced. If anybody should be ripped for a lack of effort or not caring, it's your boy Griffey.

[redsfanntheville]

Apr 24, 2008 20:56:24 GMT -5 blee2525 said:

Apr 23, 2008 20:49:32 GMT -5 redsfanntheville said:

My thoughts for a spark plug envolve pissing alot of people off here but are clearly the main problems on the team. #1 is the owners sweetheart who soundsl ike he will get his extension now, he to me exemplifies the teams flat, uncompetitive, careless type of game we are watching. After our LF is sent packing instead of getting praised by the owner time in and time out, next we clean up this pitching (Fogg, Coffey, and maybe Arroyo now) need reevaluated. Then some players will be repositioned like EE into the outfield and Bruce called up to go through the motions this year. Towards end of June or July my favorite player Griff has to let the dream go and get sent to a contender, maybe packaged with Hatty if he is still here, for some legit minor leaguers (catcher, LHSP, right handed hitting slugger)

So, wait a minute. You're on record as saying that the main problem with this club the past few seasons is the #1 run producer on an offense that's typically in the top half of the NL in runs scored? NOT THE ONLY PROBLEM, BUT IT SEEMS OUR PITCHING IS ON THE RIGHT TRACK SO NOW WE DEAL WITH THE OTHER PROBLEMS....I AM ON RECORD TO SAY ADAM DUNN WILL NEVER BE A CLUTCH HITTER WHILE IN A REDS UNIFORM. HE MAY GET HIS 40 AND 100 RBIS BUT THEY WILL COME IN BLOW OUT LOSSES OR BLOW OUT WINS (RARE) HE JUST DOESN'T GET IT. YOU ARE NOT SEEING THE SAME THING I AM, THE ANNOUNCERS, WRITERS, ETC THAT HE IS NOT CUT OUT FOR THE POSITION HE IS IN WITH THIS TEAM. You can't possibly believe that. Any chance the #1 problem with the club has been the constant barrage of replacement-level pitching we've been running out there? Jimmy Anderson, Jimmy Haynes, Paul Wilson, Joe Mays, Dave Williams. Remember those guys? And you're blaming Dunn? WITH PITCHING MORE OR LESS RESOLVED, WE MOVE ON TO OTHER PROBLEMS ON THE TEAM

The owner may be praising him, but he's the only one. The announcers hate him, columnists rip him unfairly, and fans like you can't stand him. He takes more abuse than any other good player in baseball. It's so bad that other team's fans notice, and wonder how our fans can hate our best hitter....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHbest hitter....HAHAHAHAH

I absolutely cannot believe that you rip Dunn for a lack of effort, commitment, etc., while telling me that Griffey is your favorite player. DID I NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IT IS TIME FOR HIM TO GO AS WELL! Dunn's the guy that shows up, plays every inning of every game, plays with a broken hand and a kneeNOBODY IN BASEBALL HAS PLAYED WITH A BROKEN KNEE...CONGRATS TO THOSE THAT HAVE that needs surgery, and gets mad when somebody else brings it up. He took Bruce and Votto under his wing this offseason, set up team-building events during Spring Training, and is reg YEA GIVING THEM THE ROOKIE HAZING TREATMENT, THATS ALL WE HEARD OUT OF IT...AND IF THEY DID GET ANYTHING SERIOUS OUT OF HIM I HOPE THEY SHRUGGED IT OFF. arded as a great guy by everybody who covers the Reds. I DON'T DOUBT THAT HE IS A GREAT GUY, I SEE THAT MYSELF, I'M A GREAT GUY, BUT I'M NOT PLAYING LF FOR MY BELVOED REDS! Griffey takes days off HE'S 10 YEARS OLDER THAN DUNN AND HAS EARNED DAYS OFF, resisted the move to RF when it would clearly benefit the team (remember, Dunn willingly moved to 1B before the '06 season WRONG, HE MADE IT CLEAR HE DID NOT LIKE THE POSITION, PLUS HE SUCKED THERE AS WELL, and moved back after they signed Hatteberg), and resists batting anywhere other than 3rd.

Your anger is misplaced. If anybody should be ripped for a lack of effort or not caring, it's your boy Griffey.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM SENDING GRIFF TO A CONTENDER AT THIS POINT, UNLESS HE BECOMES A COMPLIMENTARY PLAYER AFTER DUNN IS SENT FOR A GOO RH HITTING LEFTFIELD WHO CAN PLAY DEFENSE AT LEAST 33% OF THE GAME.

Sorry for the caps, but I wanted to make sure that Dunn Lover read all of this clearly.

[blee2525]

redsfanntheville-

I'm not going to quote your whole post, because you made a total of 1.5 substantive points in the entire thing. And the one I'm giving you full credit for, you're dead wrong on.

"I AM ON RECORD TO SAY ADAM DUNN WILL NEVER BE A CLUTCH HITTER WHILE IN A REDS UNIFORM. HE MAY GET HIS 40 AND 100 RBIS BUT THEY WILL COME IN BLOW OUT LOSSES OR BLOW OUT WINS (RARE)"

Absoultely, 100% wrong.

Dunn's career batting line: .248/.381/.516
Dunn career in tie games: .249/.396/.514
Dunn career in 1 Run games: .241/.384/.507
Dunn career in 2 Run games: .245/.389/.515
Dunn career in 4+ run games (blowout win/blowout loss): .243/.356/.483

Dunn's a much better hitter in close games than he is in blowouts.

Also, Dunn career with runners on base: .243/.409/.507. His splits are actually better than his career line when there are runners on and first base is occupied. The drop in his splits with RISP is entirely caused by his splits with runners on and 1B open, when pitchers are likely to issue an "unintentional-intentional" walk with an inferior hitter in the on-deck circle. With runners on and 1B open, his BA drops significantly, and his walk rate doubles, showing clearly that pitchers want no part of him in those situations.

Your half-substantive point is that nobody's ever played with a broken knee. True. I never said that, though. I said he played on a knee that needed surgery, which he did.

Two years ago, I was on the "Trade Dunn" bandwagon. In that time, though, we've shored up the pitching staff and have come to a point where offense is no longer a surplus. Now, I'm tired of seeing him unfairly bashed in the media. I feel sorry for the guy. He's a tremendously valuable offensive player, and while there are certainly flaws in his game, the offense can't afford to lose him. He's been the best offensive player on one of the best offenses in baseball for 5 years. Any flaws on this team over the past half-decade rest with the pitching staff. You can't blame the one guy who's actually pulling his weight for a losing team.

[powerofcincy]

Yeah, it's really pathetic when I'm down at the park (I sit in the cheap bleachers a lot to save money, so I'm right behind Dunn) and you hear all these people making fun of the guy for no reason, and you know he goes through it every single day. He has a tremendous OBP, and his strikeouts seem to have gone way down this year. I really like the guy, feel bad for him, and I hope he's here for a long time.

[redsfanntheville]

Blee, take the stats and throw them out in this case and other cases of teams with losing records that have guys hit with RISP. I would put money on Dunns stats being very lopsided when you breakdown the games that matter NOW vs the games in August/September when they don't anymore as a Reds fan. I bet you see that same trend with other non clutch guys as well.

Now, if Dunn would have moved to 1b a couple of years ago and worked on it, I think some slack would be cut on him, but no he had to stay in LF and bring down the defense out there and the 5 spot in the lineup.

Would you be ok with Dunn batting 7/8th right now to light a fire up his butt, and not just for a week but 2-4 weeks?

I could be a Dunn fan if he showed some team support and sacrifice behind the scenes and on the field. The whole thing about the leather chairs with him and Griff against Narron kinda started it for me with both of them. And I've been a Griff fan like many for years and years. This just showed they were above the program/premadonas, not showing any respect. I know it was leater chairs but it did show a hint of where they stood with their coach and not willing to get on board with the program.

[blee2525]

Apr 26, 2008 6:12:07 GMT -5 redsfanntheville said:

Blee, take the stats and throw them out in this case and other cases of teams with losing records that have guys hit with RISP. I would put money on Dunns stats being very lopsided when you breakdown the games that matter NOW vs the games in August/September when they don't anymore as a Reds fan. I bet you see that same trend with other non clutch guys as well.

Now, if Dunn would have moved to 1b a couple of years ago and worked on it, I think some slack would be cut on him, but no he had to stay in LF and bring down the defense out there and the 5 spot in the lineup.

Would you be ok with Dunn batting 7/8th right now to light a fire up his butt, and not just for a week but 2-4 weeks?

I could be a Dunn fan if he showed some team support and sacrifice behind the scenes and on the field. The whole thing about the leather chairs with him and Griff against Narron kinda started it for me with both of them. And I've been a Griff fan like many for years and years. This just showed they were above the program/premadonas, not showing any respect. I know it was leater chairs but it did show a hint of where they stood with their coach and not willing to get on board with the program.

Stats are a record of what's happened on the field. Why would we want to throw that out the window?

Would you really bet money that he's better in August/September than he is the rest of the season? because you'd lose a lot of money that way.

Dunn careeer OPS in April: .993
Dunn career OPS in May: .883
Dunn career OPS in June: .928
Dunn career OPS in July: .944
Dunn career OPS in August: .854
Dunn career OPS in Sept/Oct: .778

His August/September splits are brought down by brutal splits in two seasons, and it was reported that he was playing with a broken hand (2005) and a knee that needed surgery (2006) during those months. Last year, after dropping 30 pounds in the offseason, he actually improved his numbers with a 1.064 OPS in August, and a .970 OPS in September.

You're wrong. Again.

Dunn did move to 1B two years ago. He wasn't very good at it, but he worked during the offseason, and was set to play it when the season opened. Then, Krivsky signed Hatteberg a few weeks before the season, and Dunn moved back to LF. Why are you blaming Dunn for a move the organization made?

No, I would not be OK with Dunn dropping to 7th/8th in the lineup. He's the only guy other than Encarnacion who's working the count and getting on base right now. Would you be OK dropping Phillips in the lineup? His OBP currently sits at .305. If anybody deserves to drop, it's him.

And, again, he took the rookies under his wing this offseason, and led the team activities during Spring Training. That's not "showing some team support?" He played with a broken hand and a knee that needed surgery, and didn't say a word about it, even as fans and columnists ripped him for decreased production. That's not "sacrificing on the field?" He dropped 30 pounds last offseason and got in better shape to handle the grind of 162 games. That's not "sacrificing behind the scenes?"

The leather chair thing was with Miley, IIRC. And, again, why are you ripping only Dunn for this even after you mention that Griffey was involved too? Sure, that incident didn't paint either of them in the best light, but Miley had already lost the clubhouse, and that was really a desperation act to try to gain some control.

[redsfanntheville]

Blee,

So you telling me those stats by month are 2 years ago when we were in a semi pennant race and they went down during those months. Then you follow that up with last years stats being higher in August and September, thank you you defended my point.

Dunn working counts vs Philips working counts is hilarious to compare its not worth explaining to you number of RHP vs LHP we've faced, or where each guy is sitting in the lineup. Griffey started out hot for a while so Phillips was getting the tough pitches plus in a position to get on base. EE started out slumping, so they pitched around Dunn to get to EE. When Dunn has been called upon this year and years in the past its a pop fly to somewhere in the field. or a grounder to 2b/1b.

Where are you getting your inside information about supporting hte rooks, only thing out there this ST was him involved in pranks with Bruce and whoever else.

As for the deal at 1b, Krivsky more thank likely noticed Dunn was not putting in the effort to take a ground ball or a line drive so he had to scurry to sign Hatty in ST. I'm sure thats what he wanted to do in ST was to sign somebody in ST start the season at 1b.

You are right about hte Miley thing, my bad there, but I did not single out Dunn with that I put Griffey on the same shelf as him there, to show they were not as vetern players on the team trying to help regain control of the team like players on each team have to do in coordination with the coaching staff. Instead they elected to become part of the problem.