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Post by scottscudder on May 20, 2021 21:06:53 GMT -5
So I'm watching MLB Network and they are gushing over Shohei Ohtani, and deservedly so. What he is doing is incredible, OPS of .950 and leading MLB with 14 HRs, and a 2.37 ERA over 30.1 innings and 14K/9. They are saying there hasn't been a player like this for 100 years, and that player was the best of all time - Babe Ruth.
My question is this: Is Shohei Ohtani really that unique, a once in a century player, or is he a product of a developmental system in Japan that is more open to growing positional/pitching combination players than what we have in the US? It is somewhat hard for me to believe that, if developed to full potential, no American player since Babe Ruth could have pitched and had a traditional everyday positional role.
Do MLB organizations force a player one direction or the other as a matter of course (e.g., Hunter Greene), never allowing them to develop both their pitching and traditional position skills? Or, is it really the case that Ohtani is a once in a century player?
Thoughts?
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Post by Lark11 on May 24, 2021 23:37:36 GMT -5
So I'm watching MLB Network and they are gushing over Shohei Ohtani, and deservedly so. What he is doing is incredible, OPS of .950 and leading MLB with 14 HRs, and a 2.37 ERA over 30.1 innings and 14K/9. They are saying there hasn't been a player like this for 100 years, and that player was the best of all time - Babe Ruth. My question is this: Is Shohei Ohtani really that unique, a once in a century player, or is he a product of a developmental system in Japan that is more open to growing positional/pitching combination players than what we have in the US? It is somewhat hard for me to believe that, if developed to full potential, no American player since Babe Ruth could have pitched and had a traditional everyday positional role. Do MLB organizations force a player one direction or the other as a matter of course (e.g., Hunter Greene), never allowing them to develop both their pitching and traditional position skills? Or, is it really the case that Ohtani is a once in a century player? Thoughts? Well, I think he probably is a once in a century type player. That said, it certainly doesn't help that American youth and professional sports are more and more about specialization and minimizing risk. There just hasn't been a viable development path towards being both, though that's starting to shift back in the other direction. Still, people get in a twist when a starting pitcher throws over a hundred pitches these days. Everyone is so risk averse. It's even surprising that the Angels dumped the Ohtani Rules for 2021. Modernly, I'm struggling to think of a position player with the type of arm strength that would have made him a top tier pitcher. Josh Hamilton was/is a total freak, maybe if he had stayed cleaned and worked to develop himself as a pitcher, maybe he could have done it. Griffey? Ichiro? You have a guy like Mark Kotsay, who I believe was a pitcher and outfielder at Cal State Fullerton. With his arm strength, maybe he could have gone both ways. But, it's one thing to be able to do both, it's another to be able to do both at an elite level. Historically, maybe Clemente or Mays. Lefty O'Doul did both at differing times. Smokey Joe Wood did both at different times. Hell, maybe a dark horse like Pete Reiser could have done it. Shawon Dunston? I suppose it's possible that there was another player or two out there who could have done both, but it's hard enough to do one at that level.
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flash
Ted Kluszewski
Posts: 703
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Post by flash on May 25, 2021 7:27:52 GMT -5
Bench might have been able to do it, but maybe not. He had really big hands, and fingers so maybe he wouldn't have been able to control a curve or a slider. He definitely had the arm strength. Stepheson might be a candidate. I think some NFL quarterbacks might be able to pull it off. A Terry Bradshaw or a Greg Cook. The key for the hitting would be generating enough bat-speed. The guy needs to be big, yet have slender fingers so they can control the ball. They would also need a tremendous amount of discipline.
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Post by scottscudder on May 25, 2021 10:17:52 GMT -5
What about Hunter Greene?
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Post by schellis on May 25, 2021 10:30:41 GMT -5
I feel that if a player was elite at both or fringy they've find a way to make it happen.
Teams aren't going to risk player health for someone that isn't special. Like Olreud years ago. I believe he did both in the minors but didn't project to be much of a pitcher at major league level.
You have someone like Greene who is top tier pitching talent and while the bat is there it is likely though more of as a good hitter for a pitcher much like Lorenzen or Leake.
If you have to add for a pitcher to a describe a pitchers hitting talent they aren't likely going to play both ways.
There is a reason that players generally don't do both. Just part of it is insanely difficult, asking for a player to do both just means that they have to put in twice the work.
Or be fringe where the team is willing to risk just to get the extra bench slot like the Brewers with Kieshnick years ago.
Ruth is really the only player to have done it, and really he only did it for I think a year.
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Post by IndiaCaravan on May 26, 2021 11:41:26 GMT -5
Mark Whiten would have been a good pitcher and two way player I think. He had some good offensive seasons and certainly looked the part of the strong, athletic toolsy outfielder. But he had a killer arm and probably the temperament for the mound. Alas, he only got one outing in mopup for the Indians (1 hit, 2 walks, 1 hbp but 3 K's).
Ankiel probably could have got his control back but did the full switch to offensive player. He has at least one of the top 10 all-time outfield throws.
So does Bo Jackson and because he was a superhuman, I think he could've done whatever the hell he wanted to do.
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Post by schellis on May 26, 2021 12:39:21 GMT -5
The real problem is simple. Its not one of can a player do it, I would say a high majority of major league players have both pitched and played SS/CF at some point in their baseball lives no matter what they are doing now.
The issue is developmental. Eventually you need to make a choice.
What do you do with your two way player when his development stalls at AA with the bat but is insane on the mound. Do you keep them at AA till the hitting catches up, or do you make them pitcher only and press on and just have yourself a good hitter for a pitcher.
Generally with these players you don't get a Ohtani/Babe Ruth/Roy Hobbs/Steve Nebraska this player is so rare that the two way player becomes a fantasy.
You don't see them play well enough both ways as they climb the ladder. Eventually one side will win out. You just don't see that mythical video game/movie figure that checks all the boxes.
Ruth of course is the closet, if he stayed on the mound he'd still be in the hall, but he wouldn't be immortal. Everyone Knows Babe Ruth, not many know say Grover Cleveland Alexander.
Ruth was moved because while he was a very good pitcher, he was a beyond insane hitter. Couldn't risk injury or fatigue.
Ohtani isn't Ruth, but like Ruth the choice will be made for him to be pitcher or bat only at some point. Due to the Angels lacking pitching though that point is years off.
Once he ventures into league average either with the bat or the arm it will likely be dropped so he can focus on the other, or injuries might force it.
Baseball has been around for more then 150 years and you really can't find anyone that has done this successfully for more then a year or two. There is a reason for that.
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Post by Lark11 on May 26, 2021 13:18:09 GMT -5
Bench might have been able to do it, but maybe not. He had really big hands, and fingers so maybe he wouldn't have been able to control a curve or a slider. He definitely had the arm strength. Stepheson might be a candidate. I think some NFL quarterbacks might be able to pull it off. A Terry Bradshaw or a Greg Cook. The key for the hitting would be generating enough bat-speed. The guy needs to be big, yet have slender fingers so they can control the ball. They would also need a tremendous amount of discipline. There's isn't an NFL quarterback out there that can be either (1) an elite MLB pitcher, or (2) an elite MLB hitter, much less both.
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Post by crashdavissports on May 27, 2021 8:19:48 GMT -5
Bench might have been able to do it, but maybe not. He had really big hands, and fingers so maybe he wouldn't have been able to control a curve or a slider. He definitely had the arm strength. Stepheson might be a candidate. I think some NFL quarterbacks might be able to pull it off. A Terry Bradshaw or a Greg Cook. The key for the hitting would be generating enough bat-speed. The guy needs to be big, yet have slender fingers so they can control the ball. They would also need a tremendous amount of discipline. There's isn't an NFL quarterback out there that can be either (1) an elite MLB pitcher, or (2) an elite MLB hitter, much less both. Who knows? Kyler Murray could have been close maybe. Never know though because he chose football.
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Post by schellis on May 27, 2021 8:55:02 GMT -5
There's isn't an NFL quarterback out there that can be either (1) an elite MLB pitcher, or (2) an elite MLB hitter, much less both. Who knows? Kyler Murray could have been close maybe. Never know though because he chose football. Quick in all of history name me any player who was elite in two sports for more then say five years. For this to be possible it would need to be a player who at least got some hall of fame consideration in both sports. Deion was elite in football, but more role player in baseball....I do believe that he could have been very good had he focused on it. Brian Jordon was solid in both but never played both at highest level at same time. Football career to short Bo Jackson was honestly the closet I think we will see and he's also the reason why we won't see it. With the money that is being spent now on players no team is going to allow their player to play football. Kyler Murray was allowed to finish his college career but not NFL. Major sports really require a full year commitment now, you can play multiple in college to increase your chances of a pro career, but once you have it generally your two or three sport days are done, just have to hope you pick the right one because there really isn't any going back as guys like Drew Henson and Josh Booty have shown. Also if Murray chose to honor his Oakland contract he wouldn't be playing in NFL.....so he wouldn't be a NFL quarterback being a elite hitter. Its the same as saying Mike Trout could be a elite wide receiver.
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Post by crashdavissports on May 28, 2021 7:19:05 GMT -5
Not what I was comparing. I was not talking about two sport players, I am just saying that Murray could maybe have been that type of player possibly if he chose baseball (outfielder / pitcher). They would have forced him to focus on outfield I am sure, but he is the last guy I can remember with enough athletic talent to at least try pitching and position player. Oh well, doesn't matter.
Babe Ruth is still the greatest ever.
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Post by scottscudder on May 28, 2021 12:05:50 GMT -5
Let me ask a similar question, only from a slightly different perspective. If Shohei Ohtani had come up through the American system, would he be a two way player today? Or, like Hunter Greene, would he have been quickly diverted one direction or another soon after being drafted?
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Post by schellis on May 31, 2021 11:08:21 GMT -5
Let me ask a similar question, only from a slightly different perspective. If Shohei Ohtani had come up through the American system, would he be a two way player today? Or, like Hunter Greene, would he have been quickly diverted one direction or another soon after being drafted? One way. No question
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Post by curbinman on May 31, 2021 15:06:07 GMT -5
Let me ask a similar question, only from a slightly different perspective. If Shohei Ohtani had come up through the American system, would he be a two way player today? Or, like Hunter Greene, would he have been quickly diverted one direction or another soon after being drafted? One way. No question Agreed
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Post by schellis on May 31, 2021 16:36:46 GMT -5
I hunk McKay in tb is a good example. Rays letting him do both and he’s been meh
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