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Post by DocDirk on Dec 28, 2019 11:23:35 GMT -5
Tuition being half the problem is irrelevant though - unless you are proposing people live in their cars and don't eat during college. Seems like an unfair burden to me but to each their own. Overlying point - we should be trying to make a better world for the next generation when we can. We can do more to fix this problem than throw up our hands and say, "eh, what can we do?" or more frequently "entitled millennials are asking for handouts again." - When you analyze facts and make some reason comparisons, it simply isn't true that they're asking for handouts. College or not, you need a roof over your head and food to eat. So by definition, that's not part of the cost of going to school, with the caveat that dorms/school meal plans are a rip off. Many millenials are looking for someone else to pay for their student loan debts. I'm glad you're not one of them When you're committing 20+ hours a week toward your education, you have less time to work and make money to pay for those things in the process - so I'm sorry but you're wrong, it absolutely is part of the cost of going to school. And as you point out, it's disproportionately skewed against the student. Many millennials have already paid more toward their loans than you ever had to pay. That in and of itself shouldn't change your mind, but it should get you to stop talking about sob stories. As a result, especially in combination with the interest rate at almost 7% on federal loans, they are paying drastically more money than you ever had to, and a MASSIVE amount of that money doesn't even reduce their principle. A 70,000 federal student loan (almost 1/3 of my starting point, more than some, but less than many) sitting on a 30 year loan pays 600/month and over 400/month of that goes toward interest. Attempting to pay off that 70k in 10 years obviously accelerates the path, but then you can't own a home. You can't afford to have kids and pay child care costs while you work. And you're still paying over $400/month toward interest at the outset. All of this stifles the economy. We can call this a difference of opinion - obviously we're not going to find common ground here, I just hope that you can see some of the imbalance compared to your personal experience.
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searay
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Post by searay on Dec 30, 2019 9:44:54 GMT -5
You get no argument from me that millennials running up massive student loan debt like you did is a problem. But it's your problem. Not mine. That's on you
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Post by DocDirk on Dec 30, 2019 10:11:21 GMT -5
You get no argument from me that millennials running up massive student loan debt like you did is a problem. But it's your problem. Not mine. That's on you Ah, I see now. So the problem is that people just shouldn't go to college - that's how we solve it! Our country gets better that way! /sacrasm. Just proving the point that you can't see past your Boomer nose. Edit: As well, this will be a continued problem for Generation Z. That complete indifference only lends itself toward a future generation of idiots, or free college (which we can agree is not necessarily a perfect option) when enough people do clamor for it. Acknowledging on a level that the system is not working as is would be the first step toward actually attempting to fix it and preventing escalation. And agree to disagree that it's "on me" when again, the Boomers have a million hands in this matter.
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searay
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Post by searay on Dec 30, 2019 12:09:10 GMT -5
You get no argument from me that millennials running up massive student loan debt like you did is a problem. But it's your problem. Not mine. That's on you Ah, I see now. So the problem is that people just shouldn't go to college - that's how we solve it! Our country gets better that way! /sacrasm. Just proving the point that you can't see past your Boomer nose. Edit: As well, this will be a continued problem for Generation Z. That complete indifference only lends itself toward a future generation of idiots, or free college (which we can agree is not necessarily a perfect option) when enough people do clamor for it. Acknowledging on a level that the system is not working as is would be the first step toward actually attempting to fix it and preventing escalation. And agree to disagree that it's "on me" when again, the Boomers have a million hands in this matter. You've shown us time and time again that you have an attitude problem on this and that too is on you. Since you insist on making this a generational argument I'll mention that one thing Boomers think millennials struggle with is accountability. You are a poster child for that. Be personally accountable and don't blame others. You willingly took out those loans. If you got a job that pays well then it was a good decision and you don't need me. If it did not lead to a well paying job then you should have thought this through a little better. I could talk further about college expenses but I'd be repeating myself. Yes, they screw students and I support anything that can be done to change that.
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Post by DocDirk on Dec 30, 2019 13:21:13 GMT -5
Ah, I see now. So the problem is that people just shouldn't go to college - that's how we solve it! Our country gets better that way! /sacrasm. Just proving the point that you can't see past your Boomer nose. Edit: As well, this will be a continued problem for Generation Z. That complete indifference only lends itself toward a future generation of idiots, or free college (which we can agree is not necessarily a perfect option) when enough people do clamor for it. Acknowledging on a level that the system is not working as is would be the first step toward actually attempting to fix it and preventing escalation. And agree to disagree that it's "on me" when again, the Boomers have a million hands in this matter. You've shown us time and time again that you have an attitude problem on this and that too is on you. Since you insist on making this a generational argument I'll mention that one thing Boomers think millennials struggle with is accountability. You are a poster child for that. Be personally accountable and don't blame others. You willingly took out those loans. If you got a job that pays well then it was a good decision and you don't need me. If it did not lead to a well paying job then you should have thought this through a little better. I could talk further about college expenses but I'd be repeating myself. Yes, they screw students and I support anything that can be done to change that. I readily admit that I've got passion on this subject. Because of people who complain about people's "sob stories" like you did. Millennials have to work harder and invest more for every inch of success than your generation ever had to (examples have been poured out throughout this thread, but you refuse to acknowledge them,) and all you can do is thumb your nose and wonder why we're irritated with the situation. But please, let's talk about which group isn't accountable... And as I've said, I repaid 5 times what you invested in your education. Yeah, I took those loans out. I signed up for it. You don't realize that there isn't really another option - unless you don't like having access to doctors and others with advanced medical practice (not the only field with unnecessary degree escalation, you need a masters for entry level into almost any business.) So if paying back 5 times the cost of your education doesn't make me accountable in your eyes, well then I'm just not sure where your head is on this one, but I suppose I'll just have to live with myself there....
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Post by schellis on Dec 30, 2019 13:32:41 GMT -5
I think a major issue is that jobs that really do not require college education now have employers that are insisting on it. A high majority of jobs today would be better served with people getting on the job training as long as they have a appitude for it. I have an associates degree in IT, and I can say that the degree is completely worthless and that I learned far more my first month actually doing the job than I did spending time in school.
Another way to reduce cost would be to cut out the fat. Remove courses that have no bearing on ones degree. I'm sorry but I didn't need to take a semester of humanities, courses in math and accounting to learn how to configure a server program and network printers and computers.
Then you have the worthless degrees, ones that have very limited career opportunities.
Having that piece of paper doesn't mean you are smart, it really only means that you will see something through to the end, and the fact that a degree is needed for some of these jobs is just insane.
Its gotten to the point that I tell younger people to go to trade school and learn a trade, that is where steady well paying work is, yes you'll get dirty and likely ache when the day is done, but you'll have work and very likely won't have to deal with mounds of debt for a degree that likely isn't getting you anything that you couldn't have gotten without it.
To me college is a scam, and one that people higher up in companies continue to feed.
I'm not sure if this is offered (I'd be shocked if it wasn't) but schools need to have someone to guide people away from degrees that just aren't going to have opportunity where they are at. For instance, my parents neighbor have a son who went to college to be a record producer, really not much work for such in ruarl Ohio. Shocker of course is that he can't find work, though he's also got parents that let him mooch. Now if there are a ton of red flags that scream you aren't going to be able to get a job with this degree and the person continues on with it I think that should be on them.
I mean I wish I could find a job that pays well where I could talk baseball, or vintage toys and animated shows instead of what I do, but that isnt happening.
Now if this person did everything right, went into a field with tons of growth potential and came out with a degree and the jobs available which required said degree were only paying say 15 starting I think that is a problem that needs addressed.
If you require this kind of education for the job, then companies need to pay accordingly. Again though this should be on the companies who want bachlor degrees over people who have expirence or a willingness and apptitude to learn.
Yes I believe that this needs to be fixed, but I think its a problem with jobs requiring college education, our high schools failing our brightest by teaching to below average students (a lot of college first/second year stuff use to be high school) and the increase in school cost while failing to keep up the same with wages, this is more due to everyone feeling they need it to get jobs so more demand means they can jack the price.
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Post by Lark11 on Dec 30, 2019 13:33:43 GMT -5
You've shown us time and time again that you have an attitude problem on this and that too is on you. Since you insist on making this a generational argument I'll mention that one thing Boomers think millennials struggle with is accountability. You are a poster child for that. Be personally accountable and don't blame others. You willingly took out those loans. If you got a job that pays well then it was a good decision and you don't need me. If it did not lead to a well paying job then you should have thought this through a little better. I could talk further about college expenses but I'd be repeating myself. Yes, they screw students and I support anything that can be done to change that. I readily admit that I've got passion on this subject. Because of people who complain about people's "sob stories" like you did. Millennials have to work harder and invest more for every inch of success than your generation ever had to (examples have been poured out throughout this thread, but you refuse to acknowledge them,) and all you can do is thumb your nose and wonder why we're irritated with the situation. But please, let's talk about which group isn't accountable... And as I've said, I repaid 5 times what you invested in your education. Yeah, I took those loans out. I signed up for it. You don't realize that there isn't really another option - unless you don't like having access to doctors and others with advanced medical practice (not the only field with unnecessary degree escalation, you need a masters for entry level into almost any business.) So if paying back 5 times the cost of your education doesn't make me accountable in your eyes, well then I'm just not sure where your head is on this one, but I suppose I'll just have to live with myself there.... The traditional avenues to upward mobility are shrinking to the point of non-existence. Higher education used to be the clear path, but now that comes loaded with massive student loan debt. And, the higher income that comes with that advanced education now faces a substantially higher cost of living. In much of the country, home ownership is becoming a pipedream. But, what's the alternative? Those without higher education have even fewer opportunities to move up. The system is drastically out of balance. Previous generations had a much easier climb, but they basically pulled the ladder up behind them so no one else can follow.
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Post by DocDirk on Dec 30, 2019 13:43:52 GMT -5
I think a major issue is that jobs that really do not require college education now have employers that are insisting on it. A high majority of jobs today would be better served with people getting on the job training as long as they have a appitude for it. I have an associates degree in IT, and I can say that the degree is completely worthless and that I learned far more my first month actually doing the job than I did spending time in school. Another way to reduce cost would be to cut out the fat. Remove courses that have no bearing on ones degree. I'm sorry but I didn't need to take a semester of humanities, courses in math and accounting to learn how to configure a server program and network printers and computers. Then you have the worthless degrees, ones that have very limited career opportunities. Having that piece of paper doesn't mean you are smart, it really only means that you will see something through to the end, and the fact that a degree is needed for some of these jobs is just insane. Its gotten to the point that I tell younger people to go to trade school and learn a trade, that is where steady well paying work is, yes you'll get dirty and likely ache when the day is done, but you'll have work and very likely won't have to deal with mounds of debt for a degree that likely isn't getting you anything that you couldn't have gotten without it. To me college is a scam, and one that people higher up in companies continue to feed. I'm not sure if this is offered (I'd be shocked if it wasn't) but schools need to have someone to guide people away from degrees that just aren't going to have opportunity where they are at. For instance, my parents neighbor have a son who went to college to be a record producer, really not much work for such in ruarl Ohio. Shocker of course is that he can't find work, though he's also got parents that let him mooch. Now if there are a ton of red flags that scream you aren't going to be able to get a job with this degree and the person continues on with it I think that should be on them. I mean I wish I could find a job that pays well where I could talk baseball, or vintage toys and animated shows instead of what I do, but that isnt happening. Now if this person did everything right, went into a field with tons of growth potential and came out with a degree and the jobs available which required said degree were only paying say 15 starting I think that is a problem that needs addressed. If you require this kind of education for the job, then companies need to pay accordingly. Again though this should be on the companies who want bachlor degrees over people who have expirence or a willingness and apptitude to learn. Yes I believe that this needs to be fixed, but I think its a problem with jobs requiring college education, our high schools failing our brightest by teaching to below average students (a lot of college first/second year stuff use to be high school) and the increase in school cost while failing to keep up the same with wages, this is more due to everyone feeling they need it to get jobs so more demand means they can jack the price. I couldn't agree a whole lot more. Very well stated. I would disagree that college is entirely a scam. I like my doctors well educated, but you're absolutely right about trimming the fat. A bachelors degree has become a crappy piece of paper that doesn't actually prepare you for anything anymore. It's just the next step toward the next degree you need for most fields to actually get your foot in the door.
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Post by DocDirk on Dec 30, 2019 13:47:59 GMT -5
I readily admit that I've got passion on this subject. Because of people who complain about people's "sob stories" like you did. Millennials have to work harder and invest more for every inch of success than your generation ever had to (examples have been poured out throughout this thread, but you refuse to acknowledge them,) and all you can do is thumb your nose and wonder why we're irritated with the situation. But please, let's talk about which group isn't accountable... And as I've said, I repaid 5 times what you invested in your education. Yeah, I took those loans out. I signed up for it. You don't realize that there isn't really another option - unless you don't like having access to doctors and others with advanced medical practice (not the only field with unnecessary degree escalation, you need a masters for entry level into almost any business.) So if paying back 5 times the cost of your education doesn't make me accountable in your eyes, well then I'm just not sure where your head is on this one, but I suppose I'll just have to live with myself there.... The traditional avenues to upward mobility are shrinking to the point of non-existence. Higher education used to be the clear path, but now that comes loaded with massive student loan debt. And, the higher income that comes with that advanced education now faces a substantially higher cost of living. In much of the country, home ownership is becoming a pipedream. But, what's the alternative? Those without higher education have even fewer opportunities to move up. The system is drastically out of balance. Previous generations had a much easier climb, but they basically pulled the ladder up behind them so no one else can follow. YES!!!! Home ownership becoming a pipe dream is a huge problem for our country. Too many people forced into crappy apartments where they don't acquire equity and are still paying a ton. And one starting solution that is so simple is to just drop the interest on these loans. The country benefits from people going to college (and trade school - that should be included in this) and this would help people pay down their debt so much faster. Paying down debt leads to more disposable income, which fuels the economy. Very well put, Lark.
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Post by schellis on Dec 30, 2019 14:00:51 GMT -5
I think a major issue is that jobs that really do not require college education now have employers that are insisting on it. A high majority of jobs today would be better served with people getting on the job training as long as they have a appitude for it. I have an associates degree in IT, and I can say that the degree is completely worthless and that I learned far more my first month actually doing the job than I did spending time in school. Another way to reduce cost would be to cut out the fat. Remove courses that have no bearing on ones degree. I'm sorry but I didn't need to take a semester of humanities, courses in math and accounting to learn how to configure a server program and network printers and computers. Then you have the worthless degrees, ones that have very limited career opportunities. Having that piece of paper doesn't mean you are smart, it really only means that you will see something through to the end, and the fact that a degree is needed for some of these jobs is just insane. Its gotten to the point that I tell younger people to go to trade school and learn a trade, that is where steady well paying work is, yes you'll get dirty and likely ache when the day is done, but you'll have work and very likely won't have to deal with mounds of debt for a degree that likely isn't getting you anything that you couldn't have gotten without it. To me college is a scam, and one that people higher up in companies continue to feed. I'm not sure if this is offered (I'd be shocked if it wasn't) but schools need to have someone to guide people away from degrees that just aren't going to have opportunity where they are at. For instance, my parents neighbor have a son who went to college to be a record producer, really not much work for such in ruarl Ohio. Shocker of course is that he can't find work, though he's also got parents that let him mooch. Now if there are a ton of red flags that scream you aren't going to be able to get a job with this degree and the person continues on with it I think that should be on them. I mean I wish I could find a job that pays well where I could talk baseball, or vintage toys and animated shows instead of what I do, but that isnt happening. Now if this person did everything right, went into a field with tons of growth potential and came out with a degree and the jobs available which required said degree were only paying say 15 starting I think that is a problem that needs addressed. If you require this kind of education for the job, then companies need to pay accordingly. Again though this should be on the companies who want bachlor degrees over people who have expirence or a willingness and apptitude to learn. Yes I believe that this needs to be fixed, but I think its a problem with jobs requiring college education, our high schools failing our brightest by teaching to below average students (a lot of college first/second year stuff use to be high school) and the increase in school cost while failing to keep up the same with wages, this is more due to everyone feeling they need it to get jobs so more demand means they can jack the price. I couldn't agree a whole lot more. Very well stated. I would disagree that college is entirely a scam. I like my doctors well educated, but you're absolutely right about trimming the fat. A bachelors degree has become a crappy piece of paper that doesn't actually prepare you for anything anymore. It's just the next step toward the next degree you need for most fields to actually get your foot in the door. Oh I do agree with that, there are jobs that absolutely require this education, but even those shouldn't have first year required courses. Its a scam in that is deemed necessary for all walks of life now, even to manage a McDonalds or a grocery store they probably want a 4 year degree.
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searay
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Post by searay on Dec 30, 2019 14:16:02 GMT -5
You've shown us time and time again that you have an attitude problem on this and that too is on you. Since you insist on making this a generational argument I'll mention that one thing Boomers think millennials struggle with is accountability. You are a poster child for that. Be personally accountable and don't blame others. You willingly took out those loans. If you got a job that pays well then it was a good decision and you don't need me. If it did not lead to a well paying job then you should have thought this through a little better. I could talk further about college expenses but I'd be repeating myself. Yes, they screw students and I support anything that can be done to change that. I readily admit that I've got passion on this subject. Because of people who complain about people's "sob stories" like you did. Millennials have to work harder and invest more for every inch of success than your generation ever had to (examples have been poured out throughout this thread, but you refuse to acknowledge them,) and all you can do is thumb your nose and wonder why we're irritated with the situation. But please, let's talk about which group isn't accountable... And as I've said, I repaid 5 times what you invested in your education. Yeah, I took those loans out. I signed up for it. You don't realize that there isn't really another option - unless you don't like having access to doctors and others with advanced medical practice (not the only field with unnecessary degree escalation, you need a masters for entry level into almost any business.) So if paying back 5 times the cost of your education doesn't make me accountable in your eyes, well then I'm just not sure where your head is on this one, but I suppose I'll just have to live with myself there.... My 20 yr old daughter has a very specialized major and we all agreed that it was best for her to go to a private school for her education. Her school is $200K for 4 yrs. She's working right now during her break at Great Wolf Lodge. My wife and I are both driving cars with well over 100K miles and I've got to keep cardboard under them in the garage 'cause I don't want the oil staining the cement. My car has rust in several places. We're sacrificing 'cause I don't want her to start off life in debt. I know what you're describing. We're going through it. The difference is I'm not whining about it like you are
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Post by DocDirk on Dec 30, 2019 14:18:44 GMT -5
I couldn't agree a whole lot more. Very well stated. I would disagree that college is entirely a scam. I like my doctors well educated, but you're absolutely right about trimming the fat. A bachelors degree has become a crappy piece of paper that doesn't actually prepare you for anything anymore. It's just the next step toward the next degree you need for most fields to actually get your foot in the door. Oh I do agree with that, there are jobs that absolutely require this education, but even those shouldn't have first year required courses. Its a scam in that is deemed necessary for all walks of life now, even to manage a McDonalds or a grocery store they probably want a 4 year degree. Absolutely agree. I would even say in large part the first two years of college are that way. Definitely an avenue of reducing student debt that makes sense.
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Post by DocDirk on Dec 30, 2019 14:21:57 GMT -5
I readily admit that I've got passion on this subject. Because of people who complain about people's "sob stories" like you did. Millennials have to work harder and invest more for every inch of success than your generation ever had to (examples have been poured out throughout this thread, but you refuse to acknowledge them,) and all you can do is thumb your nose and wonder why we're irritated with the situation. But please, let's talk about which group isn't accountable... And as I've said, I repaid 5 times what you invested in your education. Yeah, I took those loans out. I signed up for it. You don't realize that there isn't really another option - unless you don't like having access to doctors and others with advanced medical practice (not the only field with unnecessary degree escalation, you need a masters for entry level into almost any business.) So if paying back 5 times the cost of your education doesn't make me accountable in your eyes, well then I'm just not sure where your head is on this one, but I suppose I'll just have to live with myself there.... My 20 yr old daughter has a very specialized major and we all agreed that it was best for her to go to a private school for her education. Her school is $200K for 4 yrs. She's working right now during her break at Great Wolf Lodge. My wife and I are both driving cars with well over 100K miles and I've got to keep cardboard under them in the garage 'cause I don't want the oil staining the cement. My car has rust in several places. We're sacrificing 'cause I don't want her to start off life in debt. I know what you're describing. We're going through it. The difference is I'm not whining about it like you are And there it is again. Insult people (sob stories, whining,) but get outraged when they bite back (OK Boomer.) You don't understand that the situation you're describing is not how it's supposed to be! We're in this together, and what you describe is absurd! I feel for you, and we need to be together to fix it rather than just throw shade at millennials who have no other legitimate way.
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Post by Lark11 on Dec 30, 2019 14:23:36 GMT -5
I readily admit that I've got passion on this subject. Because of people who complain about people's "sob stories" like you did. Millennials have to work harder and invest more for every inch of success than your generation ever had to (examples have been poured out throughout this thread, but you refuse to acknowledge them,) and all you can do is thumb your nose and wonder why we're irritated with the situation. But please, let's talk about which group isn't accountable... And as I've said, I repaid 5 times what you invested in your education. Yeah, I took those loans out. I signed up for it. You don't realize that there isn't really another option - unless you don't like having access to doctors and others with advanced medical practice (not the only field with unnecessary degree escalation, you need a masters for entry level into almost any business.) So if paying back 5 times the cost of your education doesn't make me accountable in your eyes, well then I'm just not sure where your head is on this one, but I suppose I'll just have to live with myself there.... My 20 yr old daughter has a very specialized major and we all agreed that it was best for her to go to a private school for her education. Her school is $200K for 4 yrs. She's working right now during her break at Great Wolf Lodge. My wife and I are both driving cars with well over 100K miles and I've got to keep cardboard under them in the garage 'cause I don't want the oil staining the cement. My car has rust in several places. We're sacrificing 'cause I don't want her to start off life in debt. I know what you're describing. We're going through it. The difference is I'm not whining about it like you are So, what about those people who don't have generous parents and family wealth to help? How are they supposed to get ahead? How are they supposed to climb the ladder?
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searay
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Post by searay on Dec 30, 2019 14:28:18 GMT -5
First of all poorer families are eligible for a lot more student aide than my kid is. They can also work like my kid is. No question that it helps to have generous families. That's a fact of life. I may very well go into debt for this but I won't make it my daughter's debt. I'll pay it off and not complain
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