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Post by psuhistory on May 27, 2015 17:46:38 GMT -5
Organizations put such a high value on their catchers. I like Alfaro, for example, but I think the Rangers probably value him so highly that he'd use up most of the air in a trade. The discussion of Mesoraco is way ahead of the medical information: maybe it's true that he won't be a regular catcher again, but that should be clearer before the Reds sink major capital into another catcher...
If someone will give something of value for Pena, just take it, and let Barnhart/Skipworth handle the catching this summer. Otherwise keep him, but I don't see why the younger pitchers should have any problems working with Barnhart, in particular...
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Post by Lark11 on May 27, 2015 18:35:09 GMT -5
This thread seems as good as any to remind everyone that this message board is for discussion. It's hard to have an interesting discussion without an exchange of different ideas. Diversity of thought and ideas is important to engaging discussion. So, while this board is frequently a circus, the goal is to have room for a great diversity of ideas under the big top.
This is shaping up to be a long season. We are likely to be deprived of hope and optimism far earlier in the season than in years past, so the negativity is ramping up earlier and probably will continue to build until the organization makes changes. With that in mind, let's try to be respectful of differing ideas those who espouse them. If we shutdown and run off everyone with a different idea, then there won't be much discussion left to be had.
Anyway, carry on.
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Post by kramer1 on May 27, 2015 18:38:25 GMT -5
Respectful to the troll? Why?
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Post by kinsm on May 27, 2015 18:46:11 GMT -5
If someone will give something of value for Pena, just take it, and let Barnhart/Skipworth handle the catching this summer. Otherwise keep him, but I don't see why the younger pitchers should have any problems working with Barnhart, in particular... Exactly. Try and put yourself into the shoes of Big Bob...if you are selling then you definitely don't want to be paying the remaining 1M$ that Pena is owed - you want that off your bottom line even if the return is only cash considerations and/or big league chew.
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Post by psuhistory on May 27, 2015 18:49:41 GMT -5
This board is frequently a circus. I think we should all take a false sense of achievement from this...
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Post by psuhistory on May 27, 2015 19:04:09 GMT -5
This thread seems as good as any to remind everyone that this message board is for discussion. It's hard to have an interesting discussion without an exchange of different ideas. Diversity of thought and ideas is important to engaging discussion. So, while this board is frequently a circus, the goal is to have room for a great diversity of ideas under the big top. Agreed, well said. I think the idea of critical discussion can also sometimes create a contradictory tone that's not intentional. There are a lot of ideas and opinions about how the Reds should run their organization, and even disagreeing strongly with some of them isn't the same as not wanting to hear them, although it can come across that way...
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Post by psuhistory on May 27, 2015 19:20:27 GMT -5
If someone will give something of value for Pena, just take it, and let Barnhart/Skipworth handle the catching this summer. Otherwise keep him, but I don't see why the younger pitchers should have any problems working with Barnhart, in particular... Exactly. Try and put yourself into the shoes of Big Bob...if you are selling then you definitely don't want to be paying the remaining 1M$ that Pena is owed - you want that off your bottom line even if the return is only cash considerations and/or big league chew. I'd prefer a player of some value, but it does seem likely that money recouped in this way would go back into payroll...
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Post by rocky15231 on May 28, 2015 9:43:29 GMT -5
Obviously though, trading Pena would be contrary to how this organization operates. A GM change is probably the catalyst though. I say this because the Reds, who are admittedly "tight" on payroll, have continued to pay a ton of mid-level amounts to absolute garbage scrubs (Ondrusek, Parra, Hannahan, Schumaker, Gregg, Marquis, Cairo, etc...) and paid for buyouts (Ludwick, Hannahan).
This is actually one of the biggest proofs of complete incompetency, because it's not like that money has been well spent and produced a great bench or bullpen. Hindsight probably says you could've paid every bullpen member outside of Chapman and every bench player around league minimum considering their performance level over Walt's tenure.
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Post by walstib on May 28, 2015 17:53:51 GMT -5
Mesoraco has an affliction that is supposed to be fully treatable through surgery, although the recovery process will take months. The Reds' long term answer behind the plate is Devin Mesoraco, with some Tucker Barnhart. What difference does it make who is behind the plate if you lose? Good question. A related question is what influence a catcher has on a rookie pitching staff. Rookies DeSclafani, Lorenzen, Iglesias, eventually Moscot - and anyone the Reds acquire at the trade deadline - are adjusting to MLB. Brayan Pena seems to be well regarded by the organization, both as a team player and for working well with pitchers, pitchers who in several cases really need help, and who could really benefit from his experience. Barnhart, Skipworth, and others could hold a glove up in the strike zone, but will the Reds deem starting an inexperienced rookie to be the best course of action for DeSclafani, Lorenzen, Iglesias, and Moscot's development? Is a C level prospect more valuable than doing anything they can to help the young pitchers develop? I think the Reds will decide that Brayan Pena's veteran leadership is more valuable to them through the end of the season than the negligible trade return he'd bring. When Cueto and Leake are traded the rotation will only get younger and more inexperienced. This is an organization that kept Corky Miller in AAA for years for the positive influence he'd have on young pitchers. "What difference does it make who is behind the plate if you lose?" This sounds like a Hillary Clinton line, but I digress. You have ignored my question. Who is the long term answer behind the plate if Mesoraco's injury precludes him from catching again?
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Post by redsfanman on May 28, 2015 19:05:22 GMT -5
Mesoraco has an affliction that is supposed to be fully treatable through surgery, although the recovery process will take months. The Reds' long term answer behind the plate is Devin Mesoraco, with some Tucker Barnhart. What difference does it make who is behind the plate if you lose? Good question. A related question is what influence a catcher has on a rookie pitching staff. Rookies DeSclafani, Lorenzen, Iglesias, eventually Moscot - and anyone the Reds acquire at the trade deadline - are adjusting to MLB. Brayan Pena seems to be well regarded by the organization, both as a team player and for working well with pitchers, pitchers who in several cases really need help, and who could really benefit from his experience. Barnhart, Skipworth, and others could hold a glove up in the strike zone, but will the Reds deem starting an inexperienced rookie to be the best course of action for DeSclafani, Lorenzen, Iglesias, and Moscot's development? Is a C level prospect more valuable than doing anything they can to help the young pitchers develop? I think the Reds will decide that Brayan Pena's veteran leadership is more valuable to them through the end of the season than the negligible trade return he'd bring. When Cueto and Leake are traded the rotation will only get younger and more inexperienced. This is an organization that kept Corky Miller in AAA for years for the positive influence he'd have on young pitchers. "What difference does it make who is behind the plate if you lose?" This sounds like a Hillary Clinton line, but I digress. You have ignored my question. Who is the long term answer behind the plate if Mesoraco's injury precludes him from catching again? The question of Mesoraco's injury precluding him from catching again is similar to 'what happens if Joey Votto's can never use his knee again' or 'what happens if Homer Bailey never returns'. Those are long shot concerns and so far from the key issues and so extreme that they're not worth planning the organization around. If Mesoraco never catches again I suspect that Tucker Barnhart and a free agent signee (the caliber of Brayan Pena) will be behind the plate for the next few years, or they can trade for a long term replacement for Mesoraco when his future is clearer. At this point evaluation of Mesoraco's future is limited entirely to speculation. 100% speculation, 0% fact.
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Post by kycatscinnreds on May 28, 2015 19:12:13 GMT -5
Reds are a joke of a program
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Post by kinsm on May 28, 2015 19:16:50 GMT -5
"What difference does it make who is behind the plate if you lose?" This sounds like a Hillary Clinton line, but I digress. You have ignored my question. Who is the long term answer behind the plate if Mesoraco's injury precludes him from catching again? The question of Mesoraco's injury precluding him from catching again is similar to 'what happens if Joey Votto's can never use his knee again' or 'what happens if Homer Bailey never returns'. Those are long shot concerns and so far from the key issues and so extreme that they're not worth planning the organization around. If Mesoraco never catches again I suspect that Tucker Barnhart and a free agent signee (the caliber of Brayan Pena) will be behind the plate for the next few years, or they can trade for a long term replacement for Mesoraco when his future is clearer. At this point evaluation of Mesoraco's future is limited entirely to speculation. 100% speculation, 0% fact. It's not 100% speculation, their is no precedent for bad hip catchers. Devin himself and Price both are on record last week stating that you'll probably see him play OF next Spring Training and Devin even said, "I plan to buy a 1B mitt too". It's a valid concern that the Reds should take into consideration. And if the best prospect they can get back in a trade this summer is a catcher then so be it...at worse they can retrade that player or Mesoraco later.
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Post by redsfanman on May 29, 2015 7:54:59 GMT -5
I think Devin Mesoraco should already have learned to play LF or 1b - it's a shame he hasn't - and it's a good thing he's now open to learning now, hip or no hip. Even if his hip recovers to 100% learning to play another position is a great way to get his bat in the lineup.
Buster Posey got 128 more plate appearances last year by playing a second position. Jonathan Lucroy got 68 more PAs last year. Brayan Pena got 181 extra PAs in 2014 by playing 1b. Even without hip problems Mesoraco should've seen those guys and decided that he wanted to be more like them, at least as far as versatility.
I think his 2015 problems have given him plenty of time to think about it - and he's said that he's been taking fly balls in the outfield this season - I'm sure his hip is part of the concern, but I think it's way too early to place too much significance on this and say he's looking at a permanent move for 2016. Good ideas do not have to be dependent on an emergency. In a normal year Posey starts ~115 games behind the plate and ~25 at another position (in his case 1b), plus a few more at DH. I would like a healthy Devin Mesoraco to do the same.
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Post by dukecrunchybagel on May 29, 2015 11:49:12 GMT -5
And exactly where would Meso end up playing?
1B -- Votto will be there if healthy 3B -- I don't think Frazier is going anywhere LF -- I suppose after Byrd is traded, but Winker will eventually be the man here RF -- I'm not sure he could handle it well, I suppose if Bruce is dealt he could end up here until Waldrop is ready.
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Post by rocky15231 on May 29, 2015 13:25:21 GMT -5
The joke is...Mesoraco was the Reds best hitter last year and one of the better hitting seasons as a catcher ever in the NL.
Yet, we're concerned about a guy who can't hit in AA and a guy who hasn't been the same since his knee surgery and will be up for a huge payday.
Does anyone see the issue here?
Certainly there may not be room for Mesoraco, but it's a travesty to rule it completely out because of those projections 2 or 3 years down the road. It's not like Bruce and Winker are sure-fire locks...
This is a losing mentality to not be flexible and to be reactive to injuries/busts.
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