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Post by Lark11 on Nov 26, 2014 0:50:05 GMT -5
www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/harper-mlb-historian-joe-dimaggio-overrated-article-1.2022747Yankees great Joe DiMaggio was overrated, says MLB historian'There is a trend toward baseball analytics now and the more you apply them, the more you chip away at the DiMaggio myth. On his 100th birthday you can still call him an all-time great but he was not the peerless center fielder he was made out to be,' said MLB historian John Thorn.NEW YORK DAILY NEWS Tuesday, November 25, 2014, 12:34 AM On the date of what would have been his 100th birthday, the late Joe DiMaggio’s larger-than-life legacy lives on for countless Yankee fans whose opinions of the Hall of Famer are shaped largely by the breathless stories passed down from parents or grandparents. In short: DiMaggio was the greatest center fielder of all time; no room for argument. Except the evolution of analytics in baseball, particularly defensive metrics in this case, dispels such a notion, according to John Thorn, the official historian of Major League Baseball. “There is this image of the Yankee Clipper sailing so gracefully in the outfield that he never had to dive for a ball," Thorn was saying Monday. “But the reality is that his contemporaries recorded more putouts. “There is a trend toward baseball analytics now and the more you apply them, the more you chip away at the DiMaggio myth. On his 100th birthday you can still call him an all-time great but he was not the peerless center fielder he was made out to be." On the other hand, there is no arguing with DiMaggio’s offensive achievements. Starting in 1936 he put up consistently great numbers for the first 12 of his 13 seasons in the big leagues — and he lost three prime years in mid-career due to military service. Even in an offense-heavy era worlds away from today’s game of specialty relievers throwing 95-plus mph in the late innings, DiMaggio’s offense stood out at the time, as he won three MVP awards and had five seasons in which his OPS was over 1.000. Perhaps most remarkably, especially when compared to the current era in baseball when hitters strike out more than ever, DiMaggio never struck out more than 39 times in a season. In 1941, the year of his famous 56-game hitting streak, DiMaggio struck out a total of 13 times. By comparison, 2014 AL MVP Mike Trout struck out 184 times, the highest total in the majors. Yet Thorn makes the case that the “wide arc" of DiMaggio’s swing would have made him more vulnerable to strikeouts against the higher velocity of both starters and relievers in today’s game. “If you could magically teleport him to today’s game,’’ said Thorn, “he would not be the same player. In 1969 he was voted baseball’s greatest living player. Today we would find that hilarious, considering that Ted Williams and Willie Mays were alive at the time." Thorn makes the point that the use of analytics doesn’t tarnish the image of every Yankee legend. Quite the contrary, he said Mickey Mantle’s career “looks great’’ under the sabermetrics microscope, and essentially said the same about Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig. “Their reality is closer to the myth," Thorn said. “They were all greater players than DiMaggio in my estimation.” So how did the DiMaggio image become so heroic? Chris Russo, the long-time New York radio personality, refers to the romantic stories his late father, Tony, drummed into him about watching DiMaggio from the bleachers in Yankee Stadium. “He talked about the effortlessness, the grace, the panache of the great DiMaggio," Russo recalled. “Remember, it was a time when you didn’t see the warts of players because there was no TV, no scrutiny of every play. “And I also think you can’t underestimate the Italian-American factor. I know my dad’s father was a fan of the (Christy) Mathewson Giants but he became a Yankee fan because of what DiMaggio meant to Italian-Americans, who were looked down upon at the time in a lot of ways in this country." Thorn, meanwhile, says the media mocked DiMaggio’s Italian heritage when he arrived in the big leagues, which was apparently considered fair game at the time. And while “he may have endeared himself to a segment of the population" in New York, Thorn says everything changed for DiMaggio in 1941. “What made him acceptable was the 56-game hitting streak," said Thorn. “He became a national hero. Every day the whole country was asking, ‘did he get a hit today?’ That and being on the national stage every year with the Yankees in the World Series." Whatever the factors, the legend grew and grew, to the point where Thorn compares it to the public worshiping at the church of the sainted Joe D. “Baseball is our national religion," said Thorn. “And belief in DiMaggio is a central tenet. I’m not pooh-poohing him. It’s just that he has been the subject of so much apotheosis — the elevation to the heavens — that it calls for analysis from Dr. Freud rather than Branch Rickey. “But when you put it all together, I think the myth counts. The story counts. It’s not just stats. The DiMaggio myth transcends history and you deny it at your peril. I admire his performance, I’m just letting a little air out of the balloon." Happy 100th indeed.
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Post by Lark11 on Nov 26, 2014 0:50:42 GMT -5
And, a follow-up by blurb in the article:
OTHER "OVERRATED" HALL OF FAMERS
John Thorn, the official historian for Major League Baseball, makes the point in the accompanying column that while Joe DiMaggio is one of baseball’s all-time greats, his performance, at least defensively, does not live up to the myth.
“DiMaggio is great, he’s just not a god," said Thorn.
Here is Thorn’s position-by-position team of Hall of Famers that, he says, doesn’t have Cooperstown credentials.
1B – George (High Pockets) Kelly, 1915-1932. Playmed mostly with the Giants. Says Thorn: “He’s in the Hall of Fame and no one knows why."
2B – Johnny Evers, 1902-1917, Cubs. Famous as part of the Tinkers-to-Evers-to-Chance double play combination that was an inspiration for a famous poem. Says Thorn: “There was a time when romance was a big part of getting into the Hall of Fame."
SS – Rabbit Maranville, 1912-1935 – Considered a great defensive shortstop. Says Thorn: “He played at a time when fielding was considered paramount at that position.’’
3B – Freddie Lindstrom, 1924, 1936. Played mostly with NY Giants. Says Thorn: “There was a time when Frankie Frisch headed up the veterans committee and got a lot of guys in who played with him. Lindstrom was part of the Frisch crew."
LF – Joe Kelley, 1891-1908. Says Thorn: “He played with the great Orioles’ teams of the 1890s. There was a time when if you played for a great team, you tended to get voted in."
RF – Chick Hafey, 1924-’37. Played mostly with the Cardinals. Says Thorn: “He was a good hitter during an era when everybody was a good hitter."
P – Ted Lyons, 1923-’46, White Sox. Says Thorn: “He’s another guy people try to figure out how he got voted in."
C – Roger Bresnahan, 1891-1908. Played mostly with Giants, Cubs, Cardinals. Says Thorn: “He was very famous in his day."
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 17:49:57 GMT -5
And, a follow-up by blurb in the article: OTHER "OVERRATED" HALL OF FAMERSJohn Thorn, the official historian for Major League Baseball, makes the point in the accompanying column that while Joe DiMaggio is one of baseball’s all-time greats, his performance, at least defensively, does not live up to the myth. “DiMaggio is great, he’s just not a god," said Thorn. Here is Thorn’s position-by-position team of Hall of Famers that, he says, doesn’t have Cooperstown credentials. 1B – George (High Pockets) Kelly, 1915-1932. Playmed mostly with the Giants. Says Thorn: “He’s in the Hall of Fame and no one knows why." 2B – Johnny Evers, 1902-1917, Cubs. Famous as part of the Tinkers-to-Evers-to-Chance double play combination that was an inspiration for a famous poem. Says Thorn: “There was a time when romance was a big part of getting into the Hall of Fame." SS – Rabbit Maranville, 1912-1935 – Considered a great defensive shortstop. Says Thorn: “He played at a time when fielding was considered paramount at that position.’’ 3B – Freddie Lindstrom, 1924, 1936. Played mostly with NY Giants. Says Thorn: “There was a time when Frankie Frisch headed up the veterans committee and got a lot of guys in who played with him. Lindstrom was part of the Frisch crew." LF – Joe Kelley, 1891-1908. Says Thorn: “He played with the great Orioles’ teams of the 1890s. There was a time when if you played for a great team, you tended to get voted in." RF – Chick Hafey, 1924-’37. Played mostly with the Cardinals. Says Thorn: “He was a good hitter during an era when everybody was a good hitter." P – Ted Lyons, 1923-’46, White Sox. Says Thorn: “He’s another guy people try to figure out how he got voted in." C – Roger Bresnahan, 1891-1908. Played mostly with Giants, Cubs, Cardinals. Says Thorn: “He was very famous in his day." I always figured Joe D was overrated. Most Yankees are. Ted Lyons and I are/Were Related. Somehow from my moms side of the family. |
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Post by schellis on Nov 26, 2014 17:58:41 GMT -5
And, a follow-up by blurb in the article: OTHER "OVERRATED" HALL OF FAMERSJohn Thorn, the official historian for Major League Baseball, makes the point in the accompanying column that while Joe DiMaggio is one of baseball’s all-time greats, his performance, at least defensively, does not live up to the myth. “DiMaggio is great, he’s just not a god," said Thorn. Here is Thorn’s position-by-position team of Hall of Famers that, he says, doesn’t have Cooperstown credentials. 1B – George (High Pockets) Kelly, 1915-1932. Playmed mostly with the Giants. Says Thorn: “He’s in the Hall of Fame and no one knows why." 2B – Johnny Evers, 1902-1917, Cubs. Famous as part of the Tinkers-to-Evers-to-Chance double play combination that was an inspiration for a famous poem. Says Thorn: “There was a time when romance was a big part of getting into the Hall of Fame." SS – Rabbit Maranville, 1912-1935 – Considered a great defensive shortstop. Says Thorn: “He played at a time when fielding was considered paramount at that position.’’ 3B – Freddie Lindstrom, 1924, 1936. Played mostly with NY Giants. Says Thorn: “There was a time when Frankie Frisch headed up the veterans committee and got a lot of guys in who played with him. Lindstrom was part of the Frisch crew." LF – Joe Kelley, 1891-1908. Says Thorn: “He played with the great Orioles’ teams of the 1890s. There was a time when if you played for a great team, you tended to get voted in." RF – Chick Hafey, 1924-’37. Played mostly with the Cardinals. Says Thorn: “He was a good hitter during an era when everybody was a good hitter." P – Ted Lyons, 1923-’46, White Sox. Says Thorn: “He’s another guy people try to figure out how he got voted in." C – Roger Bresnahan, 1891-1908. Played mostly with Giants, Cubs, Cardinals. Says Thorn: “He was very famous in his day." I always figured Joe D was overrated. Most Yankees are. Ted Lyons and I are/Were Related. Somehow from my moms side of the family. My great grandfather coached little league with Jessie Haines. Another of those fringy hall types. |
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Post by kramer1 on Nov 26, 2014 18:13:32 GMT -5
So, this guy is an idiot. I hate these baseball media dorks. They're the worst.
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Post by schellis on Nov 26, 2014 18:27:13 GMT -5
So, this guy is an idiot. I hate these baseball media dorks. They're the worst. I think Dimaggio was a hall of fame player, but he was hardly the greatest player alive at any point in his life. I mean if you look at it you had Ted Williams (who was robbed of a few MVP awards he actually out hit Dimaggio during his 56 game hitting streak) playing with him, and I think both Cobb and Ruth were still alive in the late 40's (I know Cobb was around till I think the 60's) Then you had Mays and Aaron, you could make a case for Mantle (if Mantle were playing CF in 51 instead of RF this would be no contest. If he were in CF Mantle may not have injured his leg that year and that injury dogged him for his career) I would also say that Musial was greater. DiMaggio was a great player, but he just wasn't one of the greatest of all time top 10 players, and that is where a lot of people from previous generations have him. |
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Post by scotly50 on Nov 27, 2014 6:09:03 GMT -5
So, this guy is an idiot. I hate these baseball media dorks. They're the worst. I am going with you on this one. Thorn says quite a bit but does netback anything up. So what if some of his contemporaries had more put-outs. Thirteen strikeouts in a season!! The Reds have two or three players that will strikeout that many times in a series. |
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Post by psuhistory on Nov 27, 2014 9:23:29 GMT -5
Seems like Thorn is challenging the traditional view of DiMaggio's defensive prowess, not his offensive achievements. I don't think "Was Joe DiMaggio actually as good a center fielder as people said?" is the world's greatest historical question, but it's not the world's worst one either...
One of the things I like about Thorn is that he just loves history. He's not trained as a historian. He did the coursework for a doctorate in English literature before leaving graduate school without a degree. He landed this job as a public historian for MLB on the strength of sheer passion for the subject...
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Post by kramer1 on Nov 27, 2014 10:11:17 GMT -5
Seems like Thorn is challenging the traditional view of DiMaggio's defensive prowess, not his offensive achievements. I don't think "Was Joe DiMaggio actually as good a center fielder as people said?" is the world's greatest historical question, but it's not the world's worst one either... One of the things I like about Thorn is that he just loves history. He's not trained as a historian. He did the coursework for a doctorate in English literature before leaving graduate school without a degree. He landed this job as a public historian for MLB on the strength of sheer passion for the subject... He's a tool |
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Post by psuhistory on Nov 27, 2014 10:28:21 GMT -5
Seems like Thorn is challenging the traditional view of DiMaggio's defensive prowess, not his offensive achievements. I don't think "Was Joe DiMaggio actually as good a center fielder as people said?" is the world's greatest historical question, but it's not the world's worst one either... One of the things I like about Thorn is that he just loves history. He's not trained as a historian. He did the coursework for a doctorate in English literature before leaving graduate school without a degree. He landed this job as a public historian for MLB on the strength of sheer passion for the subject... He's a tool Starting the holiday early? |
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Post by kramer1 on Nov 27, 2014 10:30:29 GMT -5
Starting the holiday early? It started years ago |
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Post by psuhistory on Nov 27, 2014 10:37:30 GMT -5
Starting the holiday early? It started years ago Carry on. I don't want to burn the house down, so I'm holding off for the moment... |
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Post by kramer1 on Nov 27, 2014 10:39:32 GMT -5
Carry on. I don't want to burn the house down, so I'm holding off for the moment... Well, I'm getting ready to go to the casino. 'Murica! |
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Post by kinsm on Nov 27, 2014 20:50:53 GMT -5
Carry on. I don't want to burn the house down, so I'm holding off for the moment... Well, I'm getting ready to go to the casino. 'Murica! I'm sitting down to a feast, everything the pilgrims enjoyed...beef tacos, refried beans, and spanish rice. |
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