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Post by psuhistory on Nov 24, 2014 0:41:11 GMT -5
I can look past his evangeliban politics. Cincinnati's such a conservative town too, he might get frisky...
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Post by kinsm on Nov 24, 2014 0:46:31 GMT -5
I can look past his evangeliban politics. Cincinnati's such a conservative town too, he might get frisky... I'm the only liberal here.
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Post by Lark11 on Nov 24, 2014 1:01:52 GMT -5
A fair point. He's not a bad option to fill our leftfield hole, but he needs to be the first change made, not the first and last. I also would prefer that we bring in an option that has some upside, some chance to outperform his contract. But, that's rarely what you get in free agency and/or from a 39 year old player. Yeah, you don't win a deal with Hunter at that price, you just hope to get what you paid for... Yep, that's a good way to put it. I'm a sucker for upside. Hunter would be perfect as the last piece of the puzzle. Unfortunately, we're still missing a corner piece or two. If Hunter is the solution to leftfield, then there'd better be more following closely on his heels. I'm a bit concerned that he would be the only move and that's just not going to be enough.
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Post by redsfanman on Nov 24, 2014 8:32:54 GMT -5
Given Hunter's age and Winker being the likely LF by opening day 2016, if not earlier, I think Torii Hunter is just another guy the Reds are trying to sign to a 1 year deal as a stopgap. Jocketty won't even confirm interest. I suspect Hunter will return to the Twins or sign a multiyear deal somewhere else. If he accepts a 1 year deal with the Reds I'd be surprised, and I suspect that's why Jocketty isn't saying much about it - he doesn't expect it to happen. Jocketty probably remembers last winter, when he thought he had a deal worked out with Grady Sizemore that eventually fell apart. There's little incentive for him to discuss talks until they've over. The idea that Jocketty is trying to negotiate a multi-year deal with Torii Hunter is little more than bland Jocketty-bashing, that the worst option must be his intention. Speaking of bland, have you ever considering offering an original thought on here, rather than just criticizing everything that everyone else says? I gave my thoughts on Torii Hunter, which was the point of the thread. Worthy of acquisition if he'd consent to a 1 year deal, although I find it unlikely that he will accept a 1 year deal with the Reds. Sorry about my lack of originality. It's unfortunate that so much of the offseason/acquisition discussion here is people repeating and rewording the notion that Jocketty is a moron who can only be expected to pursue bad deals. Say something enough times without challenging it and people start(ed) to believe it. That accusation doesn't stand up to scrutiny, so sorry about confronting it. Jocketty=moron=original. Jocketty=trying to improve the Reds=bland and unoriginal. Got it. Learn something new every day.
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Post by kinsm on Nov 24, 2014 8:51:18 GMT -5
Winker is 21 years old and has just 21 games above high A (only 74 games above A ball).
He should not stop the Reds from signing an outfielder to a 2 year deal.
FFS, give the kid a chance to learn some things in the minors before anointing him Babe Ruth Jr.
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Post by kinsm on Nov 24, 2014 8:53:33 GMT -5
---C. Trent
"Winker Isn't Ready"
"...people forget he's younger than this year's first-round pick, Nick Howard, and he was the youngest player to play for the Blue Wahoos in Pensacola this year. There was just one position player in the Southern League's South Division younger than Winker all season and six in the entire league."
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Post by redsfanman on Nov 24, 2014 9:24:34 GMT -5
Winker isn't ready YET. I recommend reading about Jesse Winker, the Reds prospect, rather than placing arbitrary expectations upon him based on his age. With the hitting skills and plate discipline he demonstrated before his car accident and again in the Arizona Fall League there's no reason to expect a long and slow development process. Maybe start reading RedsMinorLeagues.com, or some scouting reports.
It's worth recognizing that Jesse Winker has been a professional baseball player for three seasons, and has been an extremely promising hitter since the day he was drafted. He's very different from Kyle Waldrop, who just suddenly had a (mysterious) breakout season, or Yorman Rodriguez, who just seemed to learn how to suddenly hit in the second half of 2014.
Any corner outfielder signed to a 2 year contract better be a good candidate to retain trade value. I wouldn't bet on a 39 year old for more than 1 year. Would you?
Who cares if Winker is older or younger than Nick Howard? That's completely irrelevant. One is a newly drafted starting pitcher who's worked almost exclusively out of the bullpen, and both needs to develop pitches and build up durability to a point he can throw 200+ innings in a season. The other is a good pure hitter, who hits everywhere (except a brief time in AA while injured by a car accident, although many scouts claimed he had the best hit tool in the Arizona Fall League a few months later). Howard is probably returning to Dayton or Daytona to start 2015, Winker is likely to begin the season in Louisville. Their age is completely irrelevant to how close they are to being ready.
If you want to compare Jesse Winker to other young players, I point to Billy Hamilton, who the Reds made an every day player at least a year before many people who set arbitrary timelines expected. The Reds regularly expressed a belief that Billy Hamilton was smart, able to learn on the job, and make adjustments even amidst struggles, and you hear very similar, if not better, stuff about Jesse Winker. Interviewers frequently describe Winker as an intelligent guy who knows how to hit - like they do Votto - rather than some naive young free swinger who needs to learn how to hit.
Also, keep in mind that the Reds' timetable for Winker is set by what the Reds think about Winker, not what you do. If you want him spending 2+ more years in the minors no matter what, well, that doesn't matter. Based on how the Reds have handled other prospects they're likely to call him up as soon as they deem him ready, not when he meets an arbitrary timetable. I think the Reds are clearly planning on having Winker ready by 2016, if not earlier.
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Post by Lark11 on Nov 24, 2014 10:43:13 GMT -5
Delino Deshields, who managed Winker in the AFL, declared his bat to be "big league ready right now". For whatever that's worth.
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Post by psuhistory on Nov 24, 2014 10:47:18 GMT -5
A contract for two years doesn't affect Winker at all, worse things could happen than the Reds having a veteran outfielder around when Winker starts to see playing time. Staying healthy over the two years is the key, we've had enough contracts go south because of injury...
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Post by Exhausting on Nov 24, 2014 10:51:06 GMT -5
Hamilton wasn't ready, nor was bruce nor bailey nor winker. Hitting 90 mph fastballs does not mean he's ready. The reds rushed all of those players because they had no other options. Sign a damn outfielder, let him get the seasoning he needs.
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Post by jsmith on Nov 24, 2014 12:02:39 GMT -5
Winker is 21 years old and has just 21 games above high A (only 74 games above A ball). He should not stop the Reds from signing an outfielder to a 2 year deal. FFS, give the kid a chance to learn some things in the minors before anointing him Babe Ruth Jr. I am a big Winker fan, but I couldn't agree more. I wouldn't give a FA OF more than two years, but if the Reds are only willing to go one year they will either be vastly overpaying, or dumpster diving.
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Post by redsfanman on Nov 24, 2014 12:38:09 GMT -5
Delino Deshields, who managed Winker in the AFL, declared his bat to be "big league ready right now". For whatever that's worth. Blasphemy, what does a former MLB player and Winker's manager (both in the AFL and briefly in Pensacola) know about him? His age clearly indicates that he's too young. That's all that matters. Once you reach a certain age, click, you're ready.
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Post by vtreds22 on Nov 24, 2014 12:45:05 GMT -5
Delino Deshields, who managed Winker in the AFL, declared his bat to be "big league ready right now". For whatever that's worth. Blasphemy, what does a former MLB player and Winker's manager (both in the AFL and briefly in Pensacola) know about him? His age clearly indicates that he's too young. That's all that matters. Once you reach a certain age, click, you're ready. Yet another gem. You're the king of taking what someone says completely out of context, and doing it in the most condescending/douchebag way possible. I honestly hope you're not as much of an ass in real life as you are on this board.
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Post by redsfanman on Nov 24, 2014 13:11:34 GMT -5
I'm also a believer that there are some things a player can learn in the minors, some things they can't. Pitch identification, fielding, working on a swing, bunting, baserunning, there are lots of things to work on in the minors. Once you get to a certain point you need to move to MLB to continue learning.
Once a hitter gets to a point where he is tearing up the best pitching he can face in minor league baseball, well, there's little sense in leaving him there. You're not going to teach a hitter to hit MLB breaking pitches by sending him up against pitchers whose breaking pitches are not MLB caliber, in my opinion. Sending a guy to the plate against David Holmberg is no preparation for facing Aroldis Chapman. Curtis Partch is no preparation for Jonathan Broxton. Robert Stephenson is not (yet) Homer Bailey. Facing low 90's fastballs in AAA doesn't better prepare you to face 95mph+ fastballs frequently seen in MLB. Facing a career minor leaguer's breaking pitch is probably poor preparation for a breaking pitch that has kept a guy successful in MLB.
I suspect that Winker is very close to that point where he has little left to learn or gain in AAA. Similarly I think as a hitter Billy Hamilton now has far more to learn from seeing a full selection of MLB pitchers than he could returning to Louisville, and merely getting an 'extra year' in the minors sounds a lot more appealing and helpful than it actually is.
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Post by redsfanman on Nov 24, 2014 13:14:54 GMT -5
Blasphemy, what does a former MLB player and Winker's manager (both in the AFL and briefly in Pensacola) know about him? His age clearly indicates that he's too young. That's all that matters. Once you reach a certain age, click, you're ready. Yet another gem. You're the king of taking what someone says completely out of context, and doing it in the most condescending/douchebag way possible. I honestly hope you're not as much of an ass in real life as you are on this board. Out of context? It's a joke, contradicting Lark's intelligent and useful contribution with what the nonsense another poster contributed. It might make people recognize how ridiculous the original point - that Winker's age determines how ready he is - really is. Logic clearly isn't getting through, sometime sarcasm does. I assume Lark understood the remark, even if it went over your head.
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