Jockety needs to go too.

[flash]

I think that it is fine that Baker went out, but the real culprit of this mess was Jockety. He should have never strapped the reds with the Votto contract. I like Votto, and think he is a great player, but I still believe he might just be a carbon copy of Justin Morneau. Remember when he was MVP. This in turn caused friction with Phillips. He signed Broxton to his ridiculous contract. Then he signed Hanahan and Ozturis when he had Rodriquez and Hamilton in the minors. I know everyone says Hamilton wasn't ready. Those two could have done as well as H and I did.

Next you look at the farm system which Jockety is responsible for besides the big club. It was an absolute disaster. Louisville spent most of the year in the cellar. Penscaola spent all year there as well as Bakersfield. So did Billings. One reason the reds needed outside help was that the Farm was producing absolutely nothing. He signed Rolen who went almost immediately to the DL for two years. Ludwick followed suit and then insulted Reds fans. I don't know how you can say the things Ludwick said when he spent nearly the entire year on his backside.

The sad thing is that I don't see this club getting any better next year and they may be a lot worse. Payroll is extremely tight with Votto, Phillips, Bruce, and Ludwick. Both Baily and Latos could go to arbitration and eat up savings of Arroyo's contract.

And Jockety created this mess.

[grizzlylcs]

[vtreds22]

I don't think Walt needs to go; I just think he needs to wake up. That said, he's given out some questionable deals in the last two years (Ludwick, Broxton, and BP), but I commend him for locking up Votto (disagree completely with the Morneau comparison), and I still make the DiDi for Choo swap every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

And grizzly, that's always been one of my favorite GIFs.

[tiberius3108]

Oct 4, 2013 20:27:46 GMT -5 flash said:

I think that it is fine that Baker went out, but the real culprit of this mess was Jockety. He should have never strapped the reds with the Votto contract. I like Votto, and think he is a great player, but I still believe he might just be a carbon copy of Justin Morneau. Remember when he was MVP. This in turn caused friction with Phillips. He signed Broxton to his ridiculous contract. Then he signed Hanahan and Ozturis when he had Rodriquez and Hamilton in the minors. I know everyone says Hamilton wasn't ready. Those two could have done as well as H and I did.

Next you look at the farm system which Jockety is responsible for besides the big club. It was an absolute disaster. Louisville spent most of the year in the cellar. Penscaola spent all year there as well as Bakersfield. So did Billings. One reason the reds needed outside help was that the Farm was producing absolutely nothing. He signed Rolen who went almost immediately to the DL for two years. Ludwick followed suit and then insulted Reds fans. I don't know how you can say the things Ludwick said when he spent nearly the entire year on his backside.

The sad thing is that I don't see this club getting any better next year and they may be a lot worse. Payroll is extremely tight with Votto, Phillips, Bruce, and Ludwick. Both Baily and Latos could go to arbitration and eat up savings of Arroyo's contract.

And Jockety created this mess.

Latos is signed to a contract through 2014 he will make 7.5 million in 2014. As far as Bailey goes, if he doesn't want to sign a contract you have to consider trading him in the offseason. Jockety has made some big mistakes, and I do want to see some major strides in the minors soon, if we don't then he does need to go.

[redsfanman]

Okay, I've got some time, I'll take this point by point.

Joey Votto is a carbon copy of Justin Morneau?  Morneau hasn't been the same player since suffering a concussion in 2010 but I have no such concern about Joey Votto.  In what many people consider his worst season he led the league in OBP and finished with the second highest WAR of his career - Morneau's career has basically collapsed.  The similarity is that they're lefthanded-hitting firstbasemen from Canada but the similarities end there.

It isn't Walt Jocketty's fault that Votto won the MVP or is more valuable than Brandon Phillips.

Broxton's contract (and Ludwick's too, for that matter), it's not clear how much of that was Jocketty's decision vs Castellini's instruction.

Scott Rolen.  Something we've heard a lot about in the aftermath of Dusty Baker being fired is the lack of leadership on a team, and leadership skill was one of the specific reason why Jocketty sought to acquire Rolen in the first place.  There's no question that Rolen made a positive contribution to the team, even if much of his contribution came off the field.  When Jocketty extended him I don't think he had expectations of tremendous production.  Similarly we've seen (in the past year) Jonny Gomes and Hunter Pence signed to big contracts in part for what they offer to a clubhouse.

Henry Rodriguez is a utility player who doesn't field or hit particularly well, I had no problem with the Reds bringing in the slick-fielding Izturis.  Jack Hannahan quietly had a decent season, especially as a pinch hitter - a .386 OBP in 43 pinch hit plate appearances.  As a 3B his OBP was .330.  Could Henry Rodriguez match that?  I doubt it, his OBP was only .319 in AAA.

Ludwick insulted Reds fans?  I missed that.

Farm systems are typically judged by the individual players they develop, NOT the win-loss record.  They need to have talented young players in the farm system, it's not a matter of packing the All-Star teams with a bunch of career minor leaguers.  The Reds' farm system has really suffered from so many players - Cingrani, Hoover, Frazier, Cozart, Mesoraco, Grandal, Alonso, Gregorius - being promoted or traded.  When I look at the farm system I wonder how the top prospects - Stephenson, Hamilton, Travieso, Phil Ervin, Winker, Corcino, Barnhart - are doing, not where some old piece of minor league filler (see Mike Hessman, Mike Costanzo, Chad Reineke, and others) is taking the Louisville Bats.  During the Jim Bowden era I believe the Louisville Bats had some very successful years - the team was packed with career minor leaguers with no hope of major league success.

How has Walt Jocketty and the scouting department done in the drafts?
2008:  Alonso, Sappelt - Alright, I'd say.
2009:  Mike Leake, Billy Hamilton, Brad Boxberger, Donnie Joseph, Tucker Barnhart - I'd say great.
2010:  Yasmani Grandal, Ryan LaMarre - Alright, I'd say.
2011:  Robert Stephenson, Tony Cingrani - I'd say great.
2012:  Nick Travieso, Jesse Winker - Looks good so far.
2013:  Phil Ervin, Mike Lorenzen - It's early but it looks good so far.
If you think that constitutes an 'absolute disaster' I think you should look back to the Jim Bowden years to gain some perspective.  In my opinion Jocketty really benefited from the scouting department that he inherited from O'Brien and Krivsky, but overall he's been pretty darn successful in the draft - saying that his performance with the farm system was an 'absolute disaster' is absolutely false.


I agree that Walt Jocketty deserves FAR more blame than he typically gets.  In particular Dusty was frequently criticized for using bad leadoff hitters when, in fact, it's Jocketty's job to acquire such a guy - it took 5 years to get Choo.  When there are holes in Dusty's roster it's the GM's job to fill them.  If there's no competent LF candidate it's the GM's job to acquire one, not the manager's job to turn a mediocre bench player into a superstar.  Jocketty provided Dusty with players like Logan Ondrusek and Curtis Partch rather than trading for an upgrade.  Certain playing time disputes, all of which were blamed on Dusty, could've been resolved by Jocketty making a trade (either adding or subtracting a candidate).  I think that many of Dusty Baker's problems with the Reds' come from Jocketty's inactions - including the problems for which Dusty Baker was fired - not providing a Scott Rolen-esq team leader.

Overall I think Walt Jocketty has done a good job, however, and I think it's premature to fire him, especially for the reasons you mentioned.  As far as whether or not this team gets better next year, I think that's up to Jocketty - he has LOTS of options on how to proceed... not necessarily through free agency but by trade.  Bailey, Leake, Chapman, Phillips, Hanigan - any (but certainly not all) of them COULD be made available for trade, depending on how drastic a change Jocketty wants to make.  There's a ton of directions he could take the team, and I generally trust him to do the right thing.

[breakerslim]

Grizz I think those are the best tits I've ever seen.