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Post by redsfanntheville on Apr 14, 2008 21:38:32 GMT -5
If the Stros continue to stink this year, and we continue down the road with Dunn, would this be an option to go after. It gives us a LF with RH pop and better average, it sends Dunn to his home town where maybe he will give the Stros a discount on a long term deal.
While we're at it, as much as I love Griff he has lost his edge and clutch hitting, he needs to either move to a contender at the deadline or exit stage left at the end of the year. Give it up to Bruce, and keep somebody like CPAtt out in CF or a FA with Griff's money.
It is obvious still that Dunn is not clutch, and we continue to lose alot in Defense in LF especially and some in RF. Also the continued battle against LHP.
I'd go with this around July/August if we are not really contending.
CPatt-CF
Kepp-SS
Votto-1b full time
C Lee-LF
Phillips2b
Bruce-RF
EE-3b..unless he continues to struggle then maybe he gets shipped with Dunn to Stros
Backo/Ross-until offseason and then sign with some of Griffs money
Harang
Arroyo-unless somebody gives up a good young lefty at deadline
Cueto
Bailey
Volquez
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Post by Lark11 on Apr 14, 2008 22:08:43 GMT -5
Well, I'd certainly hope that we don't do that.
Carlos Lee is one of my least favorite players in the game today. He's a worse defensive player than Dunn, he's got one of the worst contracts in the game, and he's on the wrong side of 30.
For me, Carlos Lee is a non-starter.
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Post by redsfanntheville on Apr 15, 2008 8:08:57 GMT -5
If not Lee who are some good RH options OF or not. I am giving up on him, he has had at least 5 chances to get RBI's this season already and is falling back to his typical AB's we have seen. I'm ready I guess for somebody like Rowand or a Byrnes type player out there. Who do you think is out there to get package Dunn, Freel, and maybe EE to get . EE included only if his defensive struggles and offensive struggles continue, and Kepp moves to 3b with Agon getting healthy.
A list of players I'd like to go after that probably will be on noncontending teams this year, no order:
1. Rowand
2. C Pena-Dunn can be their DH, Votto can move to LF
3. Crede and SP for Dunn, EE, Minor League SP
What would you do come June if little has changed with the players mentioned above?
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Post by 61ncbus on Apr 15, 2008 9:00:17 GMT -5
While I share your enthusiasm for getting rid of Dunn, the question I would ask you is who would actually want him, and give somethin for him?
I mean he's not hitting well, and along with that crappy average and 1 hr. whos gonna take on a guy who's contract is up after this year? Maybe later in the season, but certainly not right now.
Just a thought tho, go reds!
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Post by schellis on Apr 15, 2008 9:18:53 GMT -5
Once again I'm glad that some Reds fans aren't GMs
Dunn is more valueable then any of the players you want the Reds to go after.
Yes a right handed bat is necessary. THe Reds have been hoping that EE would fill that void for some time. That being said you don't trade your best offensive weapon to fill that hole.
Dunn in LF isn't that major of a problem provided that both CF and RF are manned by players that can go get it.
Bruce will be the Reds RF next year, he's GG caliber there.
Patterson is nothing more then a stop gap in CF. I would like to see the Reds bring in a CF that can both go get it and be a true leadoff hitter.
I like Reggie Willits alot for that role.
I keep Dunn in LF.
I've had it with EE which will open up a slot at 3B. I would like to get someone that has a glove for there, to make up for Kepps lesser range.
Crede would fill that role, but he hasn't actually hit well in a year or so.
I would love to find a way to get Zimmerman from the Nationals. Don't see that happening though.
Here is the problems I think the Reds will have to address.
CF that can hit and play gold glove defense. Lead off bat would be great.
RH 3B with some power. Crede would work here but I'm a little leary to give the guy cash when he had a horrible 2007
Catcher that can field and not be a embarassment with the bat. right handed hitter would be a plus.
A number 2/3 starter to put between Harang and the kids or better a second number 1.
How would I accomplish this.
I would put Arroyo and EE on the block. I would deal Griffey at the deadline or sooner if necessary.
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Post by redsfanntheville on Apr 15, 2008 10:02:35 GMT -5
Once again I'm glad that some Reds fans aren't GMs.... Right back at you with the responses you have below. You are far from a GM with your analysis. Dunn is more valueable then any of the players you want the Reds to go after. Far from the the truth, maybe turning into most invalueable if he can't hit in the clutch....[/b]
Yes a right handed bat is necessary. THe Reds have been hoping that EE would fill that void for some time. That being said you don't trade your best offensive weapon to fill that hole.
Dunn in LF isn't that major of a problem provided that both CF and RF are manned by players that can go get it. Well I am under the belief that you should hold your own at your position and not have to let somebody else do your job for you....If you can't hack it at your position then move to another. And as much as I like Griff, I've seen him not go after some short fly balls that could have been grabbed, probably due to not wanting to get hurt.
Bruce will be the Reds RF next year, he's GG caliber there. Fair enough, but doesn't answer LF
Patterson is nothing more then a stop gap in CF. I would like to see the Reds bring in a CF that can both go get it and be a true leadoff hitter. Have you seen his numbers, he is tearing it up, plus he is loyal to our coach right now for giving him a chance which means he will bust his tail
I like Reggie Willits alot for that role. He isn't even starting, he lost his playing time from last year to some other schmo.
I keep Dunn in LF. I trade him for a RH and it will have to be a package deal at the right time when he and EE get hot and we will have to include Maloney or somebody like that to get the right guy(s)
I've had it with EE which will open up a slot at 3B. I would like to get someone that has a glove for there, to make up for Kepps lesser range.
Crede would fill that role, but he hasn't actually hit well in a year or so. He was hurt all last year
I would love to find a way to get Zimmerman from the Nationals. Don't see that happening though.
Here is the problems I think the Reds will have to address.
CF that can hit and play gold glove defense. Lead off bat would be great.
RH 3B with some power. Crede would work here but I'm a little leary to give the guy cash when he had a horrible 2007
Catcher that can field and not be a embarassment with the bat. right handed hitter would be a plus.
A number 2/3 starter to put between Harang and the kids or better a second number 1.
How would I accomplish this.
I would put Arroyo and EE on the block. I would deal Griffey at the deadline or sooner if necessary.
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Post by schellis on Apr 15, 2008 10:33:48 GMT -5
Patterson has hit well for all of two weeks. I'm sorry but two weeks of solid hitting isn't enough to change a opinion that is based on a career of being a weak hitter.
Clutch hitting is a myth. Someone can be clutch one year and horrible the next. Mainly due to the small sample sizes. Dunn has also spent the vast majority of his career hitting with nobody behind him.
Put a real threat behind Dunn and his numbers jump big time...just look at his numbers last year when he had a hot hitting EE or BP behind him. I believe he was close to .300 with power.
Lets see who would I rather face Dunn or EE when EE is hitting basically like I would at the major league level.
Dunn is slightly below average in LF when he has a real CF out there. He's definately good enough there to carry his bat. He was horrible when it was Griffey or Freel playing CF, because frankly both of those were far worse defensively then Dunn has ever been in LF.
Willits lost his job to Torii Hunter, Vlad, Garrett Anderson, Mattews, and Juan Rivera. This doesn't mean that he can't hit.
It just means that the guys running the Angels are monsterous fools.
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Post by dukecrunchybagel on Apr 15, 2008 13:19:25 GMT -5
If we trade Dunn, it will be for prospects just before July 31, and it will be for prospects better than the two draft picks we'll receive for letting Dunn walk.
Not a chance we end up dealing Dunn for another high-price contract.
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Post by The Duke on Apr 15, 2008 13:39:15 GMT -5
If we trade Dunn, it will be for prospects just before July 31, and it will be for prospects better than the two draft picks we'll receive for letting Dunn walk. Not a chance we end up dealing Dunn for another high-price contract. Not neccisarily better than a draft pick might be. We got Todd Frazier because of the supplimental 1st rd draft pick we got for Rich Aurillia signing with the Giants. Dunn won't fetch any A list or even B+ prospects because of his contract ending this year, wheras that draft pick could have much more potential, and the Reds have been drafting VERY well over the past few years. |
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Post by blee2525 on Apr 15, 2008 17:46:10 GMT -5
Sweet! So we trade Dunn and something else for a guy who's worse on offense, worse on defense, is 3 years older, $5mil more expensive this season, $2mil more expensive than we could likely lock Dunn up for, and we're locked into his contract until he's 36? Where do I sign up for that!?!?!? Lee has more RBI's than Dunn for one reason, and it has absolutely nothing to do with clutch hitting. Lee had 490 runners on base for him last year, Dunn had 395. If Dunn got the number of baserunners that Lee had last year, Dunn would have 122 RBI. Then, there's this crap: A list of players I'd like to go after that probably will be on noncontending teams this year, no order: 1. Rowand 2. C Pena-Dunn can be their DH, Votto can move to LF 3. Crede and SP for Dunn, EE, Minor League SP What would you do come June if little has changed with the players mentioned above? Rowand isn't in Dunn's league as a hitter. He's had 2 full seasons out of 7 where he was better than league average at the plate. One of them came (surprise, surprise!) in a contract year. He's been really injury-prone, with only 3 seasons out of 7 where he played more than 130 games. One of them (surprise again!) in his contract year. He's also older than Dunn, so he's very unlikely to improve in either of those respects. I find it interesting that you rag on Dunn for lack of RBI's and say we should acquire a guy who's never been close to Dunn's RBI totals. And, as good as Rowand was last year, Dunn's had a better OPS+ than that 3 out of the last 4 years. Pena looked fantastic last year, no doubt about that. But if you're frustrated with Dunn because of his low BA and high strikeouts, why do you want another low-BA, high-K guy? Add to that the fact that Pena is already 2 years older than Dunn, and has had only one season better than Dunn's worst effort, and I don't like that from the Reds' end. Also, Pena just signed a long-term deal with Tampa. If they were looking to trade him when they were out of contention, they'd have done it last year. Crede - Really? His career OBP is 70+ points worse than Dunn, and his career SLG is almost 100 points worse. He's also a low BA guy, and hit all of .216 last year. Some of you are seriously delusional when it comes to Dunn's value. There are legitimate reasons for trading him or letting him walk after the season, but the rationales and statements of Dunn's value I've seen here are ridiculous. |
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Post by redsfanntheville on Apr 15, 2008 21:49:36 GMT -5
Look, I want a Big Papi, a Manny, Berkman, one of the key guys in the lineup to hit in the clutch. You don't have to swing for the fences, you just need some good line drives and place the ball to get the guys in from 2b or 3b. DUNN HAS PROVEN he can't do this when given the chance, same for EE, and sometimes Griffey.
I am sick and tired of watch the Sox or somebody else get clutch hits (not HR's) form their 3-5 guys.
Dunn will be able to get some kind of value in the American league to a contender, or trade him to a non contender that can afford him, but that will be a big sales job on Waynes part.
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Post by schellis on Apr 15, 2008 22:08:54 GMT -5
The Reds clutch problems would be solved if they hit Dunn third instead of fifth.
Dunn has proven when given actual protection in the lineup he can tear the cover off the ball.
Unfortunatley for him he plays on the same team as someone with a monster ego.
Ortiz was nothing till he went to Boston and started hitting in front of a elite hitter.
Berkman generally has power bats around him, and hits third.
Generally speaking all of these hitters you list have at least someone following them to the plate that is something of a threat, or they are very close to near first ballot HOF quality players.
If Dunn goes anywhere next season it most certainly will be to a team that has a clue how to use him.
Till Griffey goes down that isn't happening in Cincinnati, Baker will cater to all of Griffey's needs. Heck I'm surprised that he isn't back in CF.
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Post by redsfanntheville on Apr 15, 2008 22:23:16 GMT -5
The Reds clutch problems would be solved if they hit Dunn third instead of fifth. Dunn has proven when given actual protection in the lineup he can tear the cover off the ball. Unfortunatley for him he plays on the same team as someone with a monster ego. Ortiz was nothing till he went to Boston and started hitting in front of a elite hitter. Berkman generally has power bats around him, and hits third. Generally speaking all of these hitters you list have at least someone following them to the plate that is something of a threat, or they are very close to near first ballot HOF quality players. If Dunn goes anywhere next season it most certainly will be to a team that has a clue how to use him. Till Griffey goes down that isn't happening in Cincinnati, Baker will cater to all of Griffey's needs. Heck I'm surprised that he isn't back in CF. I am a huge Griff fan from Seattle till now, but I agree, his behavior and ego have got the better of him here. And we all know Dusty will cater to him. I like Dusty, and I have confidence in him to get this turned arround, I just think its time to shake this core group up, and mix in some young guys with a couple FA's and Kepp and Phillips. |
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Post by schellis on Apr 15, 2008 22:27:39 GMT -5
Griffey hasn't been a CF/number 3 hitter for say four years if not more.
There was a stretch last year where Dunn was hitting with Griffey and BP behind him and he did play well then, but Griffey tanked.
Thats a major problem with the Reds they insist on hitting their best offensive player 5th where he can be pitched around easily enough.
Then people rip on the poor guy relentlessly because he doesn't produce as if he were hitting 3rd with two or three other threats behind him.
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