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Post by schellis on Dec 26, 2011 20:15:16 GMT -5
if you are going the non-tricky route Ted Power and Tom Hume are the last I can think of that might have done it.
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Post by psuhistory on Dec 27, 2011 9:44:40 GMT -5
I didn't want to make it tricky: I hadn't considered Rixey or Nuxhall for the reasons I mentioned, and I wouldn't define them as relievers during those seasons, but they're interesting debatable cases...
Ted Power didn't have the numbers as a reliever to qualify. He won in double figures twice, winning ten games in 1986 and 1987, the first time as a reliever. He pitched 204 innings in 1987 and also managed to lose in double figures, not a difficult feat for the 1980s Reds...
Tom Hume is the first of the marginal cases, winning ten games in 1979, though starting only 12 of his 57 games, and achieving a 1.161 whip over 137 innings in 1980, exclusively in relief. He had several fine seasons on forgettable teams. Good work, Schellis...
I have to change the question for Mario Soto, though, because one of his three seasons pitching primarily in relief hits the mark. He's one of our great starting pitchers, so no questions there. But in 1980, starting only 12 of his 53 games, and carrying a starter's load of 190.1 innings, Soto recorded an excellent 1.103 whip. It remains true that Joe Price, who is classified as a "starting pitcher" for 1980, started only 13 games, one more than Soto, and pitched only 111.1 innings. But it still seems that Soto should be included in what is now a group of three, in recognition of this remarkable season. Good catch, Schellis...
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Post by psuhistory on Dec 27, 2011 10:05:49 GMT -5
Still looking for the second pitcher to record both a 1.1 whip as a reliever and double figure wins as a starter...
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Post by dukecrunchybagel on Dec 27, 2011 19:51:42 GMT -5
Joe Price?
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Post by psuhistory on Dec 27, 2011 22:59:23 GMT -5
Joe Price deserves to be remembered for winning ten games in the service of a miserable, last place 1983 Reds team, starting all 21 of his games. In 1980, he had recorded a 1.186 whip but had started 13 of his 24 games and is described as a "starting pitcher" for that, his first season. So the question comes down to his performance during a strike shortened season, the 1981 season in which he recorded a 1.118 whip...
He only pitched 53.2 innings that year, both Hume and Moskau pitching more innings in relief. Price pitched only half the innings of the low figure for this group: Luque's 106 innings in 1919. If it's up to me, I credit DCB and marvel that Reds fans remember Joe Price, but I wouldn't put him in this group because in his full seasons as a reliever for the Reds 1.1 was not his number. Price was most effective when he was starting games...
But this is close enough for debate. Technically, Price had the numbers for the 1981 season. If I'm outvoted, I'll include him. Price did some good things for some awful teams...
But the second pitcher was a key part of a championship club. One of his bosses said of him, "He is at his best under pressure. He doesn't flinch." Part of the interest of this question is that it involves looking at great players from the standpoint of temperament, as well as athletic ability: the mental game is as important as physical skills in excelling as both a starter and a reliever...
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Post by psuhistory on Dec 28, 2011 9:39:10 GMT -5
Slotted Price in between Hume and Charlton: truly a fine, forgotten (at least by me) 1983 season. Of course, the whole team suffered in 1981, but it was only two thirds of a season...
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Post by psuhistory on Dec 30, 2011 10:12:54 GMT -5
Final hint: the second pitcher to record these numbers played for the Reds both before and after the US entered WWII. Time on this question tomorrow...
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Post by schellis on Dec 30, 2011 16:01:51 GMT -5
Final hint: the second pitcher to record these numbers played for the Reds both before and after the US entered WWII. Time on this question tomorrow... Joe Beggs
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Post by psuhistory on Dec 31, 2011 10:27:24 GMT -5
Good work, Schellis, Joe "Fireman" Beggs did it in 1940 (1.161 whip) and in 1946 (12/10 as a starter for a team that won only 67 games). He missed the 1944 and 1945 seasons for naval service in the Atlantic and Mediterranean. Gabe Paul, longtime Reds executive in various capacities from 1937 to 1960, made the statement about Beggs posted above...
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