Hall of Fame top ten vote

[schellis]

What if the Baseball Hall of Fame were to have just opened its doors this year. You can pick 10 players to be part of the initial class. Who are your ten. Can be active players as well provided they meet hall of fame career guidelines (10 years)

1. Babe Ruth--Simply the games greatest player. Getting close to the point were the majority of fans weren't even alive during his career, and yet he's still known to everyone even non-fans. Ruth saved baseball as well.

2. Ted Williams--Greatest hitter of all time. IF not for the wars that he fought in his numbers would be staggering.

3. Ty Cobb--Fierce compeitor, you either loved him or hated him. His teammates refused to take the field for a game that he had been suspended for so the Tigers had to field a team of scabs. Would have been elite in any era.

4. Willie Mays--The greatest all around offensive player.

5. Rickey Henderson--Changed the way the game was played.

6. Walter Johnson--Would have been greater if not stuck on horrible teams. Was a pitcher that was well ahead of his time.

7. Hank Aaron--Great for almost his entire career, but rarely exceptional. His stats are more a testiment to his durability and slow decline curve. Still one of the 10 best players of all time.

8. Barry Bonds--Even without the roids he would make this list, which is why he's on this list. People tend to forget just how good he was. Should have at least one more MVP then he does.

9. Cy Young--Many unbreakable records and they did name a award after him

10. Honus Wagner--The games first truely elite player.

[jsmith]

Agree with all--even Bonds as much as it pains me. I want to add six more, but don't ask me who they replace on your list!


Jackie Robinson-- besides the obvious of breaking the color barrier in MLB in 1947, he was also a great ballplayer and his speed on the bases was a major factor in Brooklyn being so great during his career.

Joe DiMaggio-- Was a great all around ballplayer, and his Yankee teams sure won.

Rogers Hornsby--One of the best RH hitters ever, and won a World Series for the Cards as a player manager.

Christy Mathewson--Great pitcher, and also helped baseball become "exceptable" for young boys to want to play. The game was seen as only for rowdy people and was looked down on as a career. He helped change the perception by being a college grad, churchgoing, and a good person.

Frank Robinson--wonderful career, and the first African American manager in the game. Devoted his life to the game.

Cal Ripken--Is widely seen as the best "present day..ie..steroid era" ambassador of the game. He also had a great career and helped break the mold of the all glove, no hit shortstop.

[schellis]

The problem I have with Jackie Robinson is the fact that I just don't think he's as reconized if he were a run of the mill white middle infielder. In fact I think he'd have trouble even getting into the hall of fame.

His career wasn't a long career.

While he had some very good years, I would really classify any of them as exceptional years.

Throw out the major ramifications of his entering baseball meant to the game and the world, and I think he's more in the good to very good teir of the hall, then he is to the elite.

What he did had to be done, but I believe that alot of people see him as a better ball player then he was because of that.

Have no problem with the earlier players. (Hornsby and Mathewson both could easily be on my list) Don't really consider Dimaggio on the a top ten list. Again to short a career and really I don't think he was the best player of his era, or even the best CF in Yankee history. However I will admit that he's probably a player that you have to have seen to truely appreciate.


Ripken I think I think is a sure fire HOF player, it isn't a HOF without him in it, but I just can't put him in the top 10, perhaps top 20. I think while very good, his seasons trended more towards good then they did exceptional and that he's known primarily because of the streak.

Remove that and I think you have someone that is viewed similar to Ernie Banks. The streak is great but it really isn't a HOF stat either. There have been a few average players that had long ones so I really don't like judging a player on something like that.

[jsmith]

I think if I were voting on my Hall of Fame, impact on the game would be very important. That would be a major reason I would have to include Robinson. I understand your point on his short career, but he also got a late start that was not his fault. He also only played one year in the minor leagues, and then came to the bigs and was a game changer right off the bat.

About Joe D..when I have read books about baseball history, such as "Glory of Their Times", almost to a man they say Ted Williams was the best hitter of their era, and say Joe D was the best baseball player they ever saw. Since I was not alive and never saw them play I am just taking their word and opinions. Comparing different players and eras is almost impossible to do cause all we really have to go off of is stats.

Very good point on comparing Banks and Ripken. I would even say Banks is probably the better player. I included Ripken cause of his impact on the game following the 94 strike and loss of the WS. That was the first time fans really game back and embraced the game after that--when he was chasing the record. Fan reaction went from spoiled players and owners fighting to joy about a true professional showing up for work everyday. You are very correct about "normal" players having very long games played streaks, and it is kind of not a very important record.

[Lark11]

I actually love this idea, but haven't had the time to put my thoughts down. But, I've been thinking it over, so here's the way I would go:

1) Babe Ruth - More obvious it could not be.
2) Ty Cobb - Yeah, he was a pain in the ass, but he was that good.
3) Honus Wagner - The Flyin' Dutchman was a 5-tool stud at a premier defensive position.
4) Joe DiMaggio - 3 Time MVP, 2 time Batting Champ, 2 time homerun champ, and top flight defensive centerfielder.
5) Mickey Mantle - Epically talented and larger than life.
6) Willie Mays - The Say-Hey Kid. Maybe the Best of All-Time.
7) Stan Musial - Great, great hitter.
8) Christy Mathewson - Big Six was dominant for a long time.
9) Pete Alexander - Perpetually underrated.
10) Greg Maddux - The best pitcher of the modern era.

[jsmith]

Like the Maddox pick Lark. I honestly never even thought of him until I saw your list. His numbers in the present era are amazing.

I think to do this right I need 20 places--lol

[Lark11]

Apr 11, 2008 23:18:36 GMT -5 jsmith said:

Like the Maddox pick Lark. I honestly never even thought of him until I saw your list. His numbers in the present era are amazing.

I think to do this right I need 20 places--lol

lol

Yeah, it's impossible to do it in just 10.

I had a real tough time leaving Jackie Robinson off the list.

Also, considered Tris Speaker, Rogers Hornsby, Lou Gehrig, Eddie Collins, Warren Spahn, Lefty Grove, Hank Aaron, and a few others.

As for Maddux, he's pretty unbelievable. It's hard to fathom just how unbelievable. On his career, he's got a 3.11 ERA, 1.14 WHIP, 3,281/971 K/BB, and a 348/214 W/L record.

Prior to the allegations, I would've considered Clemens, but steroid users don't get any consideration for my list. I thought about Pedro, but injuries have sapped his skills a bit, though his career stats are still staggering.

Finally, thought about throwing Barry Larkin on the list.

[jsmith]

All names I thought of, or used ...just too many great players.

Was thinking after I wrote last post about Maddox and what he has accomplished in this offensive era. Would be interesting to see his ERA over his peak 10 year period versus the league average from the same period. I think if you did this for almost any period for all pitchers he would rank very high. Lefty Grove during the late 20's early 30's era would be up there too I would think.

[Lark11]

Apr 11, 2008 23:37:41 GMT -5 jsmith said:

All names I thought of, or used ...just too many great players.

Was thinking after I wrote last post about Maddox and what he has accomplished in this offensive era. Would be interesting to see his ERA over his peak 10 year period versus the league average from the same period. I think if you did this for almost any period for all pitchers he would rank very high. Lefty Grove during the late 20's early 30's era would be up there too I would think.

Yeah, his era was AMAZING. In 1994 he posted a 1.56 and in 1995 he logged an 1.63. A lot of people will discredit what he did by pointing to supposed favoritism from umpires, but he was really extraordinary. The fact that his career encompassed the steroid era and smaller ballparks is what stood out to me too.

The best pitcher of the modern game comes down to Maddux, Pedro, or Clemens. I think Clemens drops out due to the recent allegations. So, it's down to Pedro and Maddux. I think a good case could be made either way, but Pedro's fragility is what tips the scales to Maddux in my book.

I agree with you Jackie Robinson, not only was he important for his role in the history of baseball, but he was also a great and I think an underrated ballplayer.

From the left side, I also really like Warren Spahn and Sandy Koufax. I didn't think Koufax had the longevity to be among the first 10 and Spahn just missed out.

From the right side, I LOVE Smokey Joe Wood. I just wish his arm would've held up a bit longer, because I think he would've been up there with Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Pete Alexander. In fact, he might have been a tick better.

His 1912 season could be the best of all-time. At the very least, it deserves some consideration. He went 34-5 with a 1.91 ERA, 1.01 WHIP, and a 258/82 K/BB ratio in 344.0 innings pitched. Truly amazing.

[jsmith]

Smokey Joe Wood, after his arm gave out became a fairly good outfielder. He was on pace to be an all time great for sure. Another pitcher who was wonderful for a short period before injuries ruined his career was Dizzy Dean. I think he hurt his toe in an all star game and was never the same after that. Koufax also was amazing for about eight years or so before he had his arm problems and decided to retire.

Glad to see I am not alone On Jackie Robinson. Was thinking I may be biased cause he has for my whole life been my all time favorite athlete. I read his book when I was eight or nine and that helped me get into baseball history, which has been a love which has never left me. There were some great Negro League players as well who we may be considering had they been given the chance.

[Lark11]

Apr 12, 2008 0:18:03 GMT -5 jsmith said:

Smokey Joe Wood, after his arm gave out became a fairly good outfielder. He was on pace to be an all time great for sure. Another pitcher who was wonderful for a short period before injuries ruined his career was Dizzy Dean. I think he hurt his toe in an all star game and was never the same after that. Koufax also was amazing for about eight years or so before he had his arm problems and decided to retire.

Glad to see I am not alone On Jackie Robinson. Was thinking I may be biased cause he has for my whole life been my all time favorite athlete. I read his book when I was eight or nine and that helped me get into baseball history, which has been a love which has never left me. There were some great Negro League players as well who we may be considering had they been given the chance.

Yeah, Cool Papa Bell is the guy who has always intrigued me, as I love the speed guys.

As for Jackie, the new wave of statistical analysis may be revealing him to be even better than previously thought. In a study he performed, Bill James compared him defensively to Bill Mazeroski. For me, I just love to watch old film clips of Jackie just running. He got the arms pumping and legs churning, even decades later it is still a joy to watch. Not much compares with seeing Jackie steal home.

As for Smokey Joe, he did become a solid outfielder, though not anywhere near as good as he was on the mound. Dizzy Dean is actually a pitcher with a similar career as Wood. Both suffered arm injuries which shortened their careers.

Dean was the pitcher who took a line drive off the foot and suffered a fractured toe. He tried to pitch through the injury, but altered his delivery to do so and ended up hurting his arm. As for Wood, I can't remember the exact details at the moment, but if I recall he slipped on wet grass and broke his thumb. When his thumb healed, he tried to immediately go back to his pre-injury workload, without gradually rebuilding his arm strength. His arm wasn't ready for the strain and he was never the same pitcher after that.

Unfortunately, with some of these guys, we are left to wonder what might have been.



The great Smokey Joe!

[jsmith]

They don't get much love, but the Sox of that ere, and 1912 in particular should be up there on lists of best teams ever. Imagine if Wood stayed near that level and the they added the Babe later--wow.


Gotta love a guy who was fast enough to turn off the light and get into bed before it got dark.......

[mexicanred]

Very hard to name just ten. I pick the best (my best) at each position:

C Bench
1B Gehrig
2B Morgan
SS Wagner
LF Williams
CF Mays
RF Ruth
LHP Grove
RHP Mathewson
Utility Pete Rose.

Some of them aren´t my fav. players but I tried to do it honestly.

[Lark11]

Apr 12, 2008 16:02:07 GMT -5 mexicanred said:

Very hard to name just ten. I pick the best (my best) at each position:

C Bench
1B Gehrig
2B Morgan
SS Wagner
LF Williams
CF Mays
RF Ruth
LHP Grove
RHP Mathewson
Utility Pete Rose.

Some of them aren´t my fav. players but I tried to do it honestly.

Nice list, mexicanred. Good to see you on here!! It's tough to argue with any of your choices, as those likely are the best players at each position.

[jsmith]

Liked your list too mexicanred! Very glad to see there are more fans who love the history of the game. Your choice of pitchers was the best you could do. I chose Paige cause I knew he needed some respect...he didn't get it from organized baseball so I tried to fix that for him..lol