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Post by psuhistory on Dec 24, 2011 9:47:16 GMT -5
I'm one of the great Reds relief pitchers, but one of only three Reds pitchers ever to record both a 1.1 whip as a reliever and double figure wins as a starter while pitching for the club... (1) Dolf Luque: 1919, 1.179 whip over 106 innings (30 games, 9 starts); 1923, 27/8, 322 innings, starting 37 of 41 games [Schellis] Extra credit for naming the second and third pitchers to achieve these numbers... (2) Joe Beggs: 1940, 1.161 whip over 76.2 innings (37 games, 1 start); 1946, 12/10 (2.30/1.126), 190 innings, starting 22 of 28 games [Schellis] (3) Mario Soto: 1980, 1.103 whip over 190.1 innings (53 games, 12 starts); 1984, 18/7, 237.1 innings, starting 33 of 33 games [Schellis] Brainiac award for naming the three pitchers, one a long-serving Red, who came close but fell short of these achievements in the starting or relieving category... (1) Tom Hume: 1979, 10-9 (57 games, 12 starts, 163 innings); 1980, 1.161 whip over 137 innings, exclusively in relief [Schellis] (2) Joe Price: 1981 , 1.118 whip over 53.2 innings, exclusively in relief; 1983, 10-6, 2.88, 1.139, 144 innings, starting 21 of 21 games [DukeCrunchyBagel]
(3) Norm Charlton: 1989, 1.122 whip exclusively in relief; 1990, 12-9 (56 games, 16 starts, 154.1 innings, 2.74 era, 1.302 whip) [Schellis]
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Post by schellis on Dec 24, 2011 11:29:40 GMT -5
Norm Charlton and Danny Graves
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Post by psuhistory on Dec 24, 2011 12:18:05 GMT -5
Good picks: I didn't consider Charlton for the main event because in 1990, the year he won twelve games and the only season he won in double figures, he only started 16 of the 56 games in which he appeared. If the consensus is that this is enough to consider him part of the starting rotation for the season, then I'll revise the question and credit Charlton...
But Charlton does belong in the Brainiac category, in any case, as a second pitcher who came close to these achievements. I'll change that part of the question...
Danny Graves never achieved either a 1.1 whip as a reliever or double figure wins as a starter...
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Post by quantumfootball on Dec 24, 2011 19:05:02 GMT -5
How about Scott Williamson?
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Post by psuhistory on Dec 25, 2011 12:17:23 GMT -5
It's a tribute to these achievements that so many excellent pitchers couldn't duplicate them. In his Rookie of the Year 1999 season, Scott Williamson won twelve games, appearing exclusively in relief and recording a 1.039 whip over 93.1 innings. He appeared in 48 games for the Reds in 2000, starting 10 and compiling a 5/8 record, 1.491 whip, then returning to form in 2002 with a 1.108 whip over 63 appearances, exclusively in relief...
Both of these pitchers won a World Series while pitching for the Reds, but the first marginal candidate just missed the opportunity...
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Post by schellis on Dec 26, 2011 10:00:22 GMT -5
Dolph Luque
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Post by psuhistory on Dec 26, 2011 13:23:59 GMT -5
Absolutely, Schellis again for the first part of the question. We all know the 1919 Reds have been overshadowed by the best of the White Sox players and by the gambling scandal. But the Reds had some advantages going into the 1919 Series, especially in the bullpen, where Dolf Luque (10/3, 2.63, 1.179) and Rube Bressler (2/4, 3.46, 1.080), among others, were much better than their White Sox counterparts. In his New York Times column, Christy Mathewson picked the Reds to do well in the Series, short of picking them to win, because of their pitching depth...
During the 1919 Series, Luque would pitch five innings in relief, giving up one hit, no walks, and striking out six (0.200 whip)...
Luque is more famous as a starting pitcher, with a record of 27/8 in 1923 for a fine Reds team (91/63) that finished second to the Giants. Luque set the single season record for wins by a Reds starting pitcher, recording a 1.93 era and 1.140 whip. Over the course of what should have been a Hall of Fame career, Luque won 194 ML games for four teams, with a 3.24 era and a 1.288 whip...
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Post by psuhistory on Dec 26, 2011 13:44:56 GMT -5
Still looking for the second pitcher to record both a 1.1 whip as a reliever and double figure wins as a starter, as well as the pitcher who came close, with the latter ending his career the season before Charlton's began...
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Post by schellis on Dec 26, 2011 13:47:23 GMT -5
Chris Hammond of course. he did do it, just not all with the Reds
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Post by psuhistory on Dec 26, 2011 13:59:01 GMT -5
As Reds fans, it's part of our tragedy that many of our players achieve success with other clubs. We can't deny this, but we don't have to celebrate it either. So no credit for Chris Hammond, who didn't achieve either of these things while playing for the Reds...
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Post by schellis on Dec 26, 2011 14:16:25 GMT -5
As Reds fans, it's part of our tragedy that many of our players achieve success with other clubs. We can't deny this, but we don't have to celebrate it either. So no credit for Chris Hammond, who didn't achieve either of these things while playing for the Reds... Whoops thought that he won 11 with the Reds one year, but it was with Florida. He didn't relieve much but would Rixey ever count as a reliever, he had one year where it looks like he was a swing man but didn't rack up a lot of appearances. Obviously he has the wins, and the year in question he did meet the whip requirement And if he's not good enough how about Nuxy. He was with the Reds for most of his career, shame it wasn't all of it, and just missed out on the early machine years. |
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Post by dukecrunchybagel on Dec 26, 2011 14:31:31 GMT -5
How about Randy Myers?
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Post by schellis on Dec 26, 2011 14:39:30 GMT -5
I had completely forgotten that the Reds tried Myers as a starter, thought that he was a one year and done for them. Hard to believe that they had Franco and Hoffman around that time and only ended up with Bip Roberts for their trouble. |
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Post by psuhistory on Dec 26, 2011 16:59:32 GMT -5
It's challenging to come up with trivia questions for this audience. I thought of Luque when we were discussing Marshall's qualities as a reliever last week, but I wouldn't have remembered the records of these other pitchers, or the second person to achieve these numbers...
Myers only pitched the two seasons for the Reds: he had the whip as a reliever in 1990, obviously a key part of a great bullpen, but only lost in double figures when the Reds tried him as a starter the next year...
Rixey and Nuxhall push the information I used for the question: I considered Rixey a starter and didn't look at him; and I didn't remember Nuxhall being particularly good before becoming a starter. So this opens up the question...
In Nuxhall's case, he started 16 of his 32 games in 1965, the year in question (1.164 whip); the pitcher listed as the number four starter, Tsitouris, started 20 games, just four more starts. Looking at his game logs, Nuxhall started at least two games in each month of the 1965 season after April. It looks like he's part of the rotation, but it's debatable. He failed to achieve the whip earlier in his career, when he was starting less than half of his games. If either Luque or the other pitcher had started half their games during the seasons in question, I wouldn't have considered them relievers...
Over a 21 year career, Rixey started less than half his games only once, in 1932, the year in question, when he started 11 of his 25 games (1.110 whip over 111.2 innings: not bad for a 41 year old). During this season, the Reds had no clear fifth starter: Kolp started 18 of his 32 games, Frey started 15 of his 28, Rixey started 11 of his 25. It's difficult to accept Rixey as a reliever under these circumstances, given that he started 12 of his 16 games in his final season the following year. By way of contrast, Luque was a very effective relief pitcher for the Reds and Giants over at least three seasons, both early and late in his career...
Great choices: learning some interesting stuff trying to keep up with this question...
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Post by schellis on Dec 26, 2011 20:09:41 GMT -5
Mario Soto had a year as a spot starter/reliever early in his career. He was also done in his late 20's (though stuck around till his early 30's) retired after 88 at 31. He should have been part of the 90 team, he had earned it after having to put up with the horrible early 80's teams.
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